[Kalen Braley]

I'm thinking the hole played down wind 45 MPH....

And he got a big kick off the back side of a hummock

And he probably chipped in from 80 yards off the green for his 3rd.

Merry Christmas!! 

[V. Kmetz]

Melvyn,

I know this strays somewhat from the thread intent (as many things do here on GCA board) but when you cite American Golf and the Haskell ball and Young Tom's use of the gutty and hickory, are you aware of the main breach that caused what we might call "Modernity" in Golf?

It was when Allain Robertson caught Ol' Tom (not so ol' then) in the late 1840s using the newer gutty ball instead of the feathery that Robertson had near exclusive proprietary rights to make. 

At the time, though reports are sparse and anecdotal, Robertson claimed Old Tom was ex-communicant from "his" brand of Golf.

I say this to illustrate that despite what you may constantly re-iterate, the Game is different things to different people and though we may not be playing "Your Brand" of Golf when we do all the things you think are heathen, you are also not playing "ours" with your disadain for such things...neither of our groups have claim to anything more authentic or more original as Change is the only constant and that which does not change withers and dies...

cheers

vk

[RSLivingston_III]

Melvin,
You are a far better man than me putting up with these people with blinders permanently attached. Until you can convince one of them to try playing by eye - only - for some period of time, say a week or a month(?), This will continue to be a futile debate. I can't see where it can be resolved by discussion, those of us that know what you are talking about realize it must be experienced for a prolonged period of time, not just trying it for a few holes.
It must become 'second nature' to the person doing it and we know what chance there is of anyone putting forth that effort.

[Melvyn Morrow]

VK

Old Tom used a Gutty because he ran out of featherie balls, so  to finish the round he used a friend ball which was the gutty.

Allan was a wise guy who knew the value of the featherie  approx. 6 to 8 times the cost of the Gutty. Yet for all the problems Allan still partnered by Old Tom in all the big money Matches.

As for the demise of the featherie is was due because it could not offer consistence, if wet it would deform, could split and was not always round which was not ideal in a ball. The Gutty gave some 50 years of stability for the game of golf and during that time the game grew first in Scotland then GB then exported to the World. The only drawback with the gutty was it could shatter.

The Game remained the same, the ball just became reliable, that’s what using and controlling technology is all about. It’s not about wanting to reduce ones score so you buy the latest club, alas the R&A never saw the development in the mid-19th Century being just a Gentlemen’s Club back then. Now they do not know what they had or have apart from making lots of money out of it.

I suppose I can understand the technology development, the raping of our old courses, as I can put that down to the stupidity of those at the R&A, but allowing carts and distance aids, but still banning them at The Open and other Majors is just typical of the crap and the double standards that is The R&A. These aids are either legal or not – The Open is just an extension to our day to day game, so why sit on the fence?

Nevertheless riding and distance aids has an effect on players, by dumbing down the player, his game and his interpretation of the game, settling for second best at best, yet putting him in first place for a coronary and perhaps aiding the onset of early  Alzheimer’s.

Is this the direction you want the modern game to go, ignoring the real meaning of golf which is actually total opposite in that the walking helps to de-stress while giving a gentle exercise, and using one’s own little grey cells keeps the brain active longer. So use a cart and we can call it Coronary Golf or use Distance aids and we may have Alzheimer’s Golf, yet I for one will remain faithful the  Royal & Ancient Game which requires one to walk and think.

 You may have a good life know but will you remember it when a little older.

Have a nice day

Melvyn

[Steve Lang]

  Mel,

You can preach as you want on walking golf and analog versus digital ditance determinations, but please lay off this Alzheimer's reference you've seemingly adopted.  From my personal family experience it is totally inappropriate and borderline offensive.

As the joke goes.. when one forgets were they've parked at the mall, chalk it up as a senior moment, when one forgets they've driven to the mall that's Alzheimers

 p.s. in answer to your thread question:  NO

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

You do not have to tell me anything about Alzhemers, but we openly address the issue.

Melvyn 

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Mr Morrow, in all seriousness, what is your deal? I don't care for carts and rarely ride, I think range finders are a waste of cash and therefore don't have one. But I don't go about insulting people who do use them. Why all the hate? I mean, do you just dislike breathing humans in general? And I ask that seriously. What is your intent here? Perhaps you should open your own golf course in whatever city you live. No yardage at all on the course, no motorized golf cars, electronic aids are not allowed on the course and so forth, and see how successful you are. How about that idea?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jamie

Wow, don't hold back mate, if you have something to say please do so.

As for me hating anyone on this site, no, some prats yes, alas no hate. But then they think worst of me anyways. As for a course that comes close to your suggestion, I will stick to TOC, always enjoy that one for some reason.

As for what am I doing here, well I have been here for a few years, so the question is why have you joined unless of course you have not been following the site as much as you perhaps intimated when joining.

My intention here is to push for info and knowledge on GCA, to pass on historical info and learn more from many kind considerate and warm hearted Gentlemen on this site.

As for Golf I am a supporter of the Royal and Ancient Game of Golf (do not see why the R&A should only use that name) and so to that end post on the subject.

Thanks for your kind and considerate response to my PM, perhaps seeing the above response I will not expect much in return.

Melvyn

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie

Wow, don't hold back mate, if you have something to say please do so.

As for me hating anyone on this site, no, some prats yes, alas no hate. But then they think worst of me anyways. As for a course that comes close to your suggestion, I will stick to TOC, always enjoy that one for some reason.

As for what am I doing here, well I have been here for a few years, so the question is why have you joined unless of course you have not been following the site as much as you perhaps intimated when joining.

My intention here is to push for info and knowledge on GCA, to pass on historical info and learn more from many kind considerate and warm hearted Gentlemen on this site.

As for Golf I am a supporter of the Royal and Ancient Game of Golf (do not see why the R&A should only use that name) and so to that end post on the subject.

Thanks for your kind and considerate response to my PM, perhaps seeing the above response I will not expect much in return.

Melvyn

Mr. Morrow I have read many times over the past while what I feel it is that you think, do and believe. I was attempting to ask you so that I could sure one way or the other if I was thinking correctly; I was making effort to not pass judgment too quickly. As far as hate goes, I did not mean that to be directed towards anyone on this site, I meant that as a seemingly general dislike of people who play the game and what you feel the game has turned into. I am trying to figure out what makes your mind tick. You find enjoyment in playing the game one way, I find enjoyment playing one way, and the guy down the street might find enjoyment playing it another. Do people who insist on using yardage books, Skycaddie's and the like all the time take themselves too seriously? Yeah, they probably do, and I have, on occasion, become rather irritated with some 25 handicap players who insisted on getting a laser yardage every time in spite of not having the ability to hit a ball much out of their own shadow. But do I dislike this person simply because he used the laser, no I do not. That is his choice.

Back to the original topic, no there is no real way to build a course that completely negates the use of distance aids. Even a wide open links course that routinely plays in 25kt winds is not immune. Even on a feel course like that, the player who uses the aids will find (or think they find) it beneficial to know the yardage to the flag and then calculate out ground conditions, wind, and the like to determine how far they wish to hit the ball.

You play the Royal and Ancient Game of Golf, I'll just stay here and play simple, plain, Golf; and we'll coexist as one big, happy, world golfing family. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jamie

Play the game anyway you want with carts, aids or whatever, all I have ever asked is that the game is correctly defined be it cart golf or whatever, but it’s not golf.

To play golf you have to walk and think your way around a course unaided. 

To hear that someone has sat on his arse all day in a cart, used all sort of aids be they markers or electronic, that individual has not played golf he has played a very similar game but not GOLF. If you are not committed to honour the game why insist that you are playing it when clearly you are not.

It just as plain and simple as that.

If I werein the Tour De France but decide to strap an engine to my bicycle and try to race with the others, it would not be tolerated but using a cart in a walking sport is acceptable but then they are not tolerated  in the Majors or The Open.

So there are times that the Governing Body makes it clear that Golf is a Walking Game and carts are not allowed and that game is called GOLF.   

Melvyn

[V. Kmetz]

Melvyn,

I'm not challenging you to do so, but because it is not my recollection from any source, can you please cite where Robertson and Old Tom played on the same side after the breach?

The point of Golf is that it has no point, like any Game...there is no point(s) that anyone can claim for it.  Monopoly, Poker, and Crossword puzzles can keep the mind just as sharp, if not sharper, and avoiding Coronary-inducing habits in one's total life keeps one from having a Coronary, unless you have congenital misfortunes in which case, walking will only hasten your death.  I realize you were just putting a zinging appellage to it, but you give so much boot-strapped literalism to these kind of topics, that you're owed some in return.

And where Melvyn...where... either anecdotally or empirically  have distance aids and carts "dumbed" down a player.  Give me an instance.

At the end of the day my man, you may sit, scream, pout, shout, stamp your feet or do anything you like...but the people have voted with their feet on this one and their feet are on the accelerator and brake of the Cart.

This thread and your stance on such topics: "Golf is Walking and Thinking, nothing more, nothing less" has just become a repeated point of iconoclasm on your part.  I'm pleased (for you) that you quite understand that no one individual's opinion has a force of effect and that it really is just a trivial issue of contextual nomenclature that for some reason, you insist on re-iterating.

Even if we concede...so what?   I think the game you play is called BattyStickThinkWalk, and mine is Golf...nyah

cheers

vk

[Kirk Gill]

There's judging a question, and then there's trying to answer it. But the answer is probably simple, as some have shown. No, I don't think that much can be done to design a course to negate the use of distance aids, other than the obvious - blindness, elevation change, or building the course on a windy site. And I'll say this - the architect that designs a course with the negation of distance aids as a priority probably isn't building the best course that a site has to offer. Aren't there more important things to be considering?

But I'll say this, Melvyn. I think for many players, other than the pros who really KNOW how far they hit their shots, distance aids are more of a comfort zone thing than anything that provides the kind of soul and game deadening assistance that so upsets you. For what that's worth.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

Jamie

Play the game anyway you want with carts, aids or whatever, all I have ever asked is that the game is correctly defined be it cart golf or whatever, but it’s not golf.

To play golf you have to walk and think your way around a course unaided. 

To hear that someone has sat on his arse all day in a cart, used all sort of aids be they markers or electronic, that individual has not played golf he has played a very similar game but not GOLF. If you are not committed to honour the game why insist that you are playing it when clearly you are not.

It just as plain and simple as that.

If I werein the Tour De France but decide to strap an engine to my bicycle and try to race with the others, it would not be tolerated but using a cart in a walking sport is acceptable but then they are not tolerated  in the Majors or The Open.

So there are times that the Governing Body makes it clear that Golf is a Walking Game and carts are not allowed and that game is called GOLF.   

Melvyn

So, you're saying that people playing in professional tournaments are playing golf because they walk the course? I read that correctly yes? So, that must mean, according to what is written in your last sentence above, that using distance aids is also included in playing GOLF. After all, that is what you have written.

Please, sir, tell me how you would design a course to negate the use of distance aides? After all you asked the question, several of us have answered it, how would you answer your own question? How would you design and build such a course?

[Sean_A]

Yes, other than the obvious devices, I don't think there is a way negate the use of distance aids.  Furthermore, I would hope that wouldn't be the goal of any archie.  Still, in this ever expanding era of distance being the number 1 tool of attack for the golfer (this is a long era as its lasted at least since the intro of the Haskell), I think distance aids taken to the extreme as they have been today greatly reduce the effect and need of much clever architecture.  It shouldn't be a surprise that fairness has become the priority of many archies and that the result is many a course which is less than it might be.  For you guys out there who can't get on without knowing exactly where you stand at all times don't bitch about one dimensional or ott courses as you are part of the reason archies have a mandate to produce the less than stellar product. 

Ciao   

[Melvyn Morrow]

VK

Riding a cart dumbed down my game when I tried it many years ago. Even though there were no cart tracks and we could use the fairway, it took that element that enables a golfer to fee one with the course. By not walking I found myself devoid of the feedback only walking provides and which is so sorely missed by riding – certainly define that as dumbing down my experience.

As for the game of golf, perhaps the concept of honouring the game by its long history of being a walking game has something to do with it. Being ignorant of the history of the game or discarding it as irrelevant does not negate the underlying fact the Walking has been a major part of the game for 500 years.

There is a difference between riding and walking, first and foremost the player riding is not entering into the spirit of the game, he by the virtue of riding is fresher than the walker which may well be reflected in his performance. The final point being that The Open is a walking tournament, now this being the oldest Major competition in the Golfing World requires the players to walk.

Tradition and history may not be important to you, perhaps you have a limited history, but we have a long history which we are proud of and yes I have a very long family connection that traces golf in my family back to the 1720’s which certainly reflects upon a strong loyalty and honouring traditions.

As for Allan and Old Tom, did you know that they were related? No, I expect not, but perhaps that might explain why Allan brought Old Tom into the business.  As for the on-going matches after the Gutty incident all you need to do is refer to the dates of the matches which were published in the paper of that period. 
 
As for the name of the game you play, as long as you walk and do not ride you have every right as defined by history to say you are playing golf.

Kirk

I follow your line of thought but comfort zone is just another excuse for using outside aids.

Jamie

I am talking about THE OPEN regards carts. As for distance aids they are just a modern sickness many players have difficulty coming to terms with as it’s a question of egg or chicken (does the last look at the ball before taking the shot allow the mind to overrule the distance information from the aids – through an automatic involuntary action)

I have previously mentioned that is would not be far off what we have in TOC with a few more blind spots and additional hazards.   

I suppose at the end of the day it’s a simple question are we man enough to play the real game of golf or are we playing the late 20th Century easy game that require very little in commitment from the modern players. Call them lazy of just no longer committed to the game, so why should we credit their efforts as a anything to do with the great game of Golf.

Melvyn

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