[Robert Thompson]

I hear there's a list of modern and classic Canadian courses coming out from Golfweek on Friday. I didn't know Golfweek had a Canadian panel. I'm sure Brad had some hand in this -- but is there anyone on the board who participated? I've seen the list and it was a bit surprising. I was sworn to keep it to myself till Friday, but I wondered if anyone knew anything about it.

[Tom_Doak]

Robert:

Is there a Canadian panel, or do U.S. panelists just want to travel to Canada and access the best courses?

[Adam Clayman]

I'm not sure if there's a separate panel. I know of at least one former panelists from Canada.
We were asked to rate courses from other countries. I assume that was the start of Brad's database.

Tom, with the rise of the C.Dollar we can take advantage of the currency, too.

[Ian Andrew]

They may want to make a few minor changes while they have the chance.

(for one) I know the Algonquin makes the classic list with a Ross notation.
That course is gone ... the course was a complete rebuilt by McBroom ... and should be in the Modern List.

same for Manoir Richleau - complete rebuild by Cooke's office


The Classic List is much better than Score's (Canadian publication)
Some interesting picks...

[Matthew MacKay]

I was asked to join the GW group about a year ago and have played about 90% of the courses on the Canadian list. I'm not sure if there are others on the panel with that depth of experience in Canada, but I'm sure many of the Americans have played the well-known Canadian courses.

I am very curious to see the results, and happy that Brad took this project on.

[Jonathan Cummings]

There are lots of Canadians on the GW panel (my guess in the dozens).  Canadian and American GW raters are asked to rate courses in both countries.  I imagine Brad has a pretty good database of votes on many of the recognized quality courses north of the 48th.  JC

[Matthew MacKay]

Well, the Canadian ranking is now on the Golfweek website. A few comments, for what it's worth...

-6 classic courses would have a high enough mark to crack the US list...I guess when you use the 10/1 ratio that's not too bad. Same for the modern list.

Classic:

-not surprised that Jasper is so high, but a little surprised that the drop down to Hamilton is quite large (nearly a full point)

-I wonder if many panellists have seen Toronto GC since the reno?

-Banff's mark is surprising low, for a course that at one time was considered top 100 in the world

-mild surprises include RM Red on the list, St. Thomas low on the list, no Summit, Cherry Hill, Kawartha

Modern:

-no Tobiano...maybe not enough votes? Most people seem to rave about the course

[Matthew MacKay]

Also interesting to compare GW to ScoreGolf:

-Highlands is #5 claissic on the SG list

-Mount Bruno is #20 classic

-Crowbush is #5 modern

-Rocky Crest is #11 modern

-courses that rank fairly high on SG but not on GW list include Glencoe, King Valley, Stewart Creek, Le Maitre, Dunderave, Copper Creek, Le Geant

[Will MacEwen]

http://www.golfweek.com/news/golfweeks-best/canadian-courses/

Royal Colwood seems quite low, especially in relation to Victoria.

I haven't played many of these courses, but Chateau Whistler is just not very good. 

[Mark Saltzman]

-courses that rank fairly high on SG but not on GW list include Glencoe, King Valley, Stewart Creek, Le Maitre, Dunderave, Copper Creek, Le Geant

Matt, I have played all of these except Dunderave.  I believe that their not being highly rated by GW gives more credibility to their rating.

I'm a little surprised to see Rocky so highly rated.  Ditto for Muskoka Bay.

And it is very nice to see Osprey get recognition.  A phenomenal 54-hole facilitiy and I would not be surprised if the club's third layout (the Toot) just barely missed out on making the list as well.  

Edit: I have only taken a cursory glance at the list.  Will have to go over it in more detail to come up with more complete thoughts.

Mark

[Robert Thompson]

I haven't put it up against the Score list, but Fox Harb'r is way too high -- it is dropping like a rock on the Score list and might be the worst course on a great site in Canada. Hard to fathom how it is better than Eagles Nest, Oviinbyrd, Bigwin, etc.
Nice to see Humber Valley get some love -- hard to imagine how many actually saw it, and where is Tobiano? That seems notable in its abscence.
I didn't have much of an issue with the classic list, other than to suggest Banff is too low, though it is hard to fathom that so many have seen the ultra-private Mount Bruno. Also few will have seen Toronto since the reno, and Royal Montreal Blue, Manior Richelieu, and Algonquin are all complete renos -- Algonquin isn't even the same course that was there, nor is Richelieu, so they really shouldn't be included.
Nice to see an American magazine paying attention to Canada; not so cool when it gets basic facts wrong.

[Ronald Montesano]

RE: Cherry Hill

It's probable that folks have not seen the work that Ian Andrew & co. (along with Mother Nature during that October Storm of aught-eight) performed at the course. If you last saw it in 2007, it's a completely different play today.

I believe that Lookout Point occupies a better piece of property than Cherry Hill, but I don't know if the design (although well inspired) is 15 rater slots higher than Cherry Hill. I think what Ian's bunkering, ponding and tee deck project did most was eliminate some of the mundane holes at Cherry Hill. Although the hill influences the flow of water and the meandering of the greens, its actual prominence on holes is quite slight...it comes into play in a gradual way on 1 and 9, and even less on 18, and that's it.

It is well-known that those who grow up at Cherry Hill, besides having wealth, can putt with nearly anyone, anywhere.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt MacKay. Re; Banff. I have to believed the ill-conceived routing change and the softening of some greens is directly responsible for its slip in quality.

[Don Hyslop]

I would hope that the Canadian Government would take note of the rankings from a non Canadian source and invest the money needed for the repairs and Ian's renovations at Highland Links. With Stanley Thompson being declared a few years ago as a person of National Historic Significance, there should be funds available to ensure this course reflects the work of this GCA genius in the best way possible.

Just read Robert's article on repairs and renovations at Highland Links and it seems Ian has been given the go ahead to continue his work, that is great news!!

[Gary Slatter]

anyone's lists are good fun, and agree with Robert, it's nice to see US notice Canadian courses, even if they miss some obvious ones.
I also appreciate GW didn't rate Cabot Links prior to it's opening.

Don- I also hope Parks Canada notice HIGHLAND LINKS position, one that my heart agrees with.

Mark - Osprey doesn't get proper recognition anywhere, 3 excellent courses!

Adam - I agree that the new Banff routing might be a factor (to the older raters), I found the greens were OK, however the bunkers were mostly uplayable last year.

I prefer one list, the Classics have had so much great work done on them that they should mix with the "moderns".  In Track and Field they don't have two divisions, Juiced and Non-juiced, it's too hard to determine so they go with one division per gender.

[Ronald Montesano]

I think that I agree with Don...I imagine that a top 100 can work...I believe that a Whirlpool (Stanley Thompson) or Cherry Hill (Walter J. Travis) from the Niagara region would be fitting members of a top 100 and that another 40 courses could be placed. I think that a top 60 is a bit condescending, as if to say that "we" don't have enough courses.

[Adam Clayman]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the greens at Banff. What I didn't care for was being told they were replicated
When there are pictures on the wall that are obviously different. IMO it boils down to the corporate culture of marketing (thinking they can tell someone anything and be believed) to the decision to change the routing, the most important factor, all for the sake of increasing revenue by building a building to host bigger groups. Those faults should not be rewarded by people whose primary focus is to evaluate the quality of the course.

[Robert Thompson]

Adam: The problem with Banff is that Fairmont doesn't seem to care whether work was done correctly. They could put Banff back quite easily -- and I know an architect you could do it. So far nothing...

The bunkers are fuctionally a mess -- and it would bother me if I showed up and paid $200 to play there.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I preumse you meant architects - plural - Rob... my friend

[Robert Thompson]

Jeff: No architect -- I think Rod Whitman would do an excellent job. 

That said, you, Ian and Yannick could do that one together and it would be aok with me.

[Greg McMullin]

Don, Ian posted on his blog that he has a contract with Parks Canada and he will be supervising the repair and improvement work. Here is a link to his blog post http://ianandrewsgolfdesignblog.blogspot.com/2011_03_01_archive.html

In addition, the Highlands Links work crew has continued the tree cutting program under Ian's direction and the results are really opening up many of the areas that were overgrown. For anyone that's interested to see some of the results you can visit the Highlands Links Facebook page where a series of pictures showing the results of the cutting were posted a couple of days ago. It's my understanding that there will be additional pictures posted as the work progresses.

I would hope that the Canadian Government would take note of the rankings from a non Canadian source and invest the money needed for the repairs and Ian's renovations at Highland Links. With Stanley Thompson being declared a few years ago as a person of National Historic Significance, there should be funds available to ensure this course reflects the work of this GCA genius in the best way possible.

Just read Robert's article on repairs and renovations at Highland Links and it seems Ian has been given the go ahead to continue his work, that is great news!!

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