[Mike Sweeney]

I don't necessarily think golf is gets wrong....golf is changing...especially at club level.  Golf clubs are a microcosm of society.  In the UK volunteering to help locally is way down with my generation. This aspect of modern life has crept into golf. Yes, there are many traditional clubs which have members doing important (and unimportant) voluntary work for clubs, but increasingly this aspect of clubs is giving way to letting the professionals handle the business of the club, the membership and the course.  Heck, there are a ton of courses which are founded on this idea.  "Members" pay and play without much invested in the fabric of the club.  I am probably a classic case of this...I naturally am not a clubby person.  I don't have much interest in hangin about clubhouses drinking and socializing with the same bunch of guys every week....or even playing with the same bunch of guys every week.  I think intentionally or not and for whatever reasons, this has become the norm for club memberships in the UK. 


Ciao

+1

I am cleaning up an estate and we received a $5000 bond from a local swim and tennis club that my in-laws founded 70 or so years ago. No interest, just the original bond that was put up by probably 20 or so "Founding Members".


I am sure there are some examples somewhere, but the idea of new "community clubs" is a thing of the past.


I have always thought of GCA.com as my "Club Without Real Estate". I have friends around the world that would host me on their couch after a round, I have done charity outings for my son's charities, I have seen and probably been a part of "petty club politics", and I have resigned at least twice and come back as it is the best things going for the style of golf I like to play.


It is hard to find people who want to walk, carry a bag, and play a redesigned muni on a hot day. That is what I am doing with a GCAer on Friday!


Fairways and greens....

[Mark Pavy]

Mark


I play for the fun of the game/enjoying the designs, socializing, excercise in lovely surroundings and a small element of competition.


Ciao

Thanks Sean, I appreciate you answering a very simple question.

I have just started taking members at my course, approximately 50% of the membership is males aged 21-35. Interestingly, the demographic for monthly club type events does not reflect this same ratio, it's down. Naturally, all golfers wants and needs will vary depending on their stage-of-life.

[Sean_A]

Mark

I am markedly older than your demographic     At least in the UK many guys my age and older don't belong to clubs (many quit) even though they may play fairly regularly in the good weather months.  I am somewhat unusual in that I have a country membership, but not a local membership.  I am finding more and more that clubhouses are empty and not reflective at all of the number of people who played the course that day.  A lot of folks don't even stop at the house when playing a course as a member or visitor.  Its quite a small percentage of people who will hang out in the house for 2+ hours after golf whereas with my dad's generation this was the norm.  It all adds up to less clubiness.  It must be very difficult on younger folks...many are simply not going to want to hang out with the 50+ crowd for long after golf and in many clubs membership in the 20s is sparse.  Bottom line...golf is taking a larger role in why golfers play...the socializing/clubiness side of the game is waning. So the course better be a keeper at the right price or the New Breed will kick on to new pastures as soon as it suits them.


Ciao 

[Bradley Anderson]

Golf is a religion and the golf professional is the priest.


When I got in to greenkeeping (1977) the club had an atmosphere and temperament that was entirely the identity of the golf professional. Like all good priests, he wasn't necessarily the holiest member of the parish - he didn't have to carry the best game - he had a sacerdotal function of exemplifying the essence of what being a golfer at that club was all about.


That kind of guy is gone these days. I was very fortunate to work with two legends over the years, but they were both driven out of the business by atheists (general mangers).

[BCowan]

Mark

I am markedly older than your demographic     At least in the UK many guys my age and older don't belong to clubs (many quit) even though they may play fairly regularly in the good weather months.  I am somewhat unusual in that I have a country membership, but not a local membership.  I am finding more and more that clubhouses are empty and not reflective at all of the number of people who played the course that day.  A lot of folks don't even stop at the house when playing a course as a member or visitor.  Its quite a small percentage of people who will hang out in the house for 2+ hours after golf whereas with my dad's generation this was the norm.  It all adds up to less clubiness.  It must be very difficult on younger folks...many are simply not going to want to hang out with the 50+ crowd for long after golf and in many clubs membership in the 20s is sparse.  Bottom line...golf is taking a larger role in why golfers play...the socializing/clubiness side of the game is waning. So the course better be a keeper at the right price or the New Breed will kick on to new pastures as soon as it suits them.


Ciao

Sean,

    That was a good post and all, but that is somewhat of the demise of a good golf culture.  Do most UK clubs have a card room or grill room with wood tables and comfy chairs?  I don't like the white table clothes myself and can see more people opting out of eating at the golf course in a stuffy environment.  I know older generations stayed 2+ hrs, I played many rounds with older folks where I grew up in my early 20's.  DUI had impact on people not spending 2+ hours in the bar section.  Someone doesn't have to stay 2+ hrs but this generation who doesn't understand having a drink or bite to eat after the round is important to golf culture.  Below is a photo of Diamond Springs clubhouse, I was told by the golf shop folks that the clubhouse (right portion above cart barn) has been closed for 3 years.  I recall the reason was under-utilization.  Lucky for them the course is public and they didn't pump money into a sinking ship like a private club would.  Anyway this is very unfortunate for the building looks unpretentious and somewhere I would have enjoyed a burger. 

[Sean_A]

Ben

Practically every club in GB&I has a casual dining room/bar where one can (in theory) eat a simple meal. Often times though, food serving hours are somewhat limited so it pays to call ahead if one plans to eat.  Very few clubs are open all day every day for food...that approach is simply unaffordable for a significant percentage of clubs.  Even a significant percentage of big name clubs are on old school time where food availability is limited. Not many clubs have a comfy couch area/grill room/card room. 

I think most GB&I members just accept the half service approach of their clubs without questioning it and most of the time this approach makes sense.  It always stands out to me when I see lots of staff about at GB&I clubs, often times this will be at non-member owned clubs or clubs where tourists heavily frequent.  Its a real eye opener for Brits when they see the private clubs in the US...until they learn about the monthy dues  That said, I did play Mimosa Hills last year and their approach is quite similar to the UK and it seems to work.  I liked the course a lot and would join a place like that if I moved back to the US, but I really don't know how many private clubs exist on this model in the US.  Yet, I still didn't see the clubhouse rammed on a weekend AM. 

Ciao 

[Tony_Muldoon]

I often ponder why this site is called Golf CLUB Atlas when it's about Architecture, Golf Courses, Overseas Trips, Top 100 courses and ratings- NOTHING AT ALL about a Golf Club and what it means to be a member of a Golf Club.

Building a golf course is wonderful, however, creating a Golf Club is much more important to the game.

Thank you I have been saying this for years.  Of course this is much more subjective and probably wouldn't make a suitable subject for a Discussion Group. This site is misnamed.  But as Oscar Wilde said, "If you think you've never though better of the course after being treated well by it's members, then you've never been treated well".  A proper Club has a personality and it's fascinating to meet it, even if you're only visiting.

(The actual Quote: "Anyone who does not believe in flattery clearly has never been flattered." )

[Thomas Dai]

And then there's the Groucho Marx quote of "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." - wasn't it Hillcrest in LA where he played and was a member?


Atb

[Buck Wolter]

Got this email today from the guy who runs the local Junior Program in Lakeville Minnesota. My son was one of over 40 kids out for HS golf this year from 7th-12th grade. The course is called Heritage Links and is always busy but they make room for Junior Golf (and I'm guessing have made a profit with it). The Team aspect of what they do is outstanding and I think it helps them compete with other sports but there is also an emphasis on competition and getting better. Takes loads of hardwork but it can be done -- these kids aren't settling for golf they are choosing it over other Spring Sports like Baseball, Lacrosse, Track, etc.

This past week was busy with competition of our junior golfers. Today we ended the match play competition with our 9 hole consolation and championship matches. Andrew Day was our consolation winner. Jason Day was our champion. It was a banner year for the Heritage Links Junior League and ACADEMY. We started with a great Lakeville South run to the 3AAA second place finish at MSHSL. This run included the 1AAA section title and the SSC title. Along the way we saw Bennett Thomas help his AVHS team. Bennett joined us last year. We also saw Hofslein and Tanney compete for Prior Lake. Warner from New Prague looks to be an up and comer as well. The Heritage Can has become something larger than life. We had 48 participants this year. We start with fun and frivolity and build to competitive sweat. Newcomers come to find out, this competing is pretty cool. Noah Rasinski, Matt Mills, Trey Sheehan and Drew Kairis were leaders of this storied event. Tanner Sperling and William Moore added to a great 2016 Heritage Can. Our next escape took us to the shores of Lake Minnewaska to reclaim the MGA State Team Championship. And that we did!! The trophy will soon be on display in the clubhouse. We then took a breath before the return of match play competition. Match play was missing for a couple of years. Shame on me. We had more participants in junior match play than either the Resorter's or the Birchmont. Forty juniors battled it out. Brandon Sperling battles Trey SHEEHAN deep in their match. Matt Mills takes Trey out in the next round. Matt admitted he was an underdog but kept playing his game. And then comes Cronkhite from the other bracket. He takes out seasoned Jett SHEEHAN and then slays the giant, Noah Rasinski. He takes Matt Mills to the 18th green, before settling for runner up. A great run by a youngster. Does this mean Trey and Noah are done? Hardly folks! Trey and Noah finished 1st and 2nd in the club championship!! It is a testament to what out juniors are capable of!!

Side note to this season. With the changes implemented within the MGA team format, change was needed to determine our ACADEMY player of the year. I spent much time on the JR PGA sight looking at numbers of those within our ACADEMY. Many good scores from our juniors. However, one individual stood out. He posted a 73 today in the season ending JR PGA Warrior Cup. Heritage Links ACADEMY POY is Gavin Cronkhite.

[Bill_McBride]

Ben

Practically every club in GB&I has a casual dining room/bar where one can (in theory) eat a simple meal. Often times though, food serving hours are somewhat limited so it pays to call ahead if one plans to eat.  Very few clubs are open all day every day for food...that approach is simply unaffordable for a significant percentage of clubs.  Even a significant percentage of big name clubs are on old school time where food availability is limited. Not many clubs have a comfy couch area/grill room/card room. 

I think most GB&I members just accept the half service approach of their clubs without questioning it and most of the time this approach makes sense.  It always stands out to me when I see lots of staff about at GB&I clubs, often times this will be at non-member owned clubs or clubs where tourists heavily frequent.  Its a real eye opener for Brits when they see the private clubs in the US...until they learn about the monthy dues  That said, I did play Mimosa Hills last year and their approach is quite similar to the UK and it seems to work.  I liked the course a lot and would join a place like that if I moved back to the US, but I really don't know how many private clubs exist on this model in the US.  Yet, I still didn't see the clubhouse rammed on a weekend AM. 

Ciao

I think what's really interesting to note is that a lot of food and beverage operations I've seen in the UK are leased to a proprietor so he bears the risk rather than the club.  It's more like a stand alone restaurant leased from the landlord.   This could be a better model in the US than our typical money losing in house operations. 

[Jeff Bergeron]

How could there ever be a discussion of this topic without mentioning caddies. I'm talking about kids caddying at the local club for pocket/college money or perhaps an Evans Scholarship. What do they learn?


How to interact with adults, often time successful adults.


Golf etiquette.


How to play.


Monday golf privileges.


Networking.


And life. as seen in the caddy yard.


Caddies have historically been the feeder for our great game. To ignore them is a huge mistake.


I propose all private clubs of America (it's different in other countries) do not charge for the cart if you take a caddy. That will inject youth into the game and accelerate it's growth.

[Richard Fisher]

Absolutely in agreement with many, and especially Sean's resounding post, about this. I have just come back from the (British) GIrls' Championship at Harlech, where I saw large numbers of 15- and 16-year-old Europeans hit the ball staggeringly well, and (most importantly) enjoy themselves enthusiastically: I don't think that these kids thought they were playing a dying game...

The participant problem is, arguably anyway, not nearly so pronounced at the junior level, but rather at the demographic 25-40, for both sexes, where simple pressures of time and changing work and family patterns have impacted on voluntary organisations of all kind, including golf clubs (and political parties...). Getting non-retirees to serve on committees, let alone take on (say) the club captaincy, is an increasing challenge, certainly here in the UK, and in turn reflects the business expansion of those same institutions, with many clubs expecting a level of input from those same captains that would have been thought inappropriate a generation ago.

A thread about Clubs is important. One of the (many) interesting things about the commentary of Peter Alliss, and perhaps why his such a Marmite voice within sport, is that for him the defining institutions in golf are golf clubs, and (certainly not) entities like professional tours and executive bodies. This differentiates him from about 90% of those working in the contemporary golf broadcast media, with one or two honourable exceptions. The world of golf that he entered in the UK in the 1940s and 1950s was entirely built around Clubs, and famously the Open Championship finished on a Friday afternoon so that professionals could get to their 'proper' jobs and open up their club shops at the weekend and serve the members. Now clearly, there were numerous aspects of that world - with its emphatic social distinction between the membership and the club servants (including the professional) who worked on their behalf - that we would nowadays find pretty unacceptable. At the same time to have such a base in voluntary institutions has always, historically, been a strength of the game, and it's one reason why the UK casualty rate amongst member-owned clubs has been notably lower than amongst commercial or proprietor initiatives. If the Royal Isle of Wight Golf Club, Bembridge, is, along with Bramshot, perhaps the most celebrated golf club casualty in the UK (9 holes on a tiny spit of land, and you can still stay in the old clubhouse) then that tells you something about the strength of the model. So far, anyway...

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