[John Kirk]

Quote from National Links Course Profile, by Ran  M . . .

"6th hole, 135 yards, Short; One of Ben Crenshaw's favorite short holes, the green is eccentric and a thorough original with nothing like it anywhere in the world thanks to a small mountain in the center which makes it effectively play as three small ones. A player on the opposite side of the green from the hole should happily  take three putts. The front left corner of the green is quite good at gathering a ball and feeding it into the front bunker."

"Short Hole" 6th @ National Golf Links of America

You can see on Slag's photo that the head of the man putting from the front left of the green is below the feet of the men waiting on the fringe behind the green.  Although this photo appears flatter than the new hole, I believe the putting green has similar elevation changes.

[jkinney]

JKinney,

I think you have to include additional factors in your analysis of # 4 and # 6 at NGLA.

At # 6 the height differential between tee and green is substantive, thus materially affecting the trajectory of the tee shot.  In addition, at 141 from the red tee, 131 from the green tee and 110 from the white tee, a very short club is often employed.

Thus the trajectory of shots coming into that green approach on a very steep angle of attack, minimizing roll and muting your concerns.

Into the wind, mis-hits are magnified, greatly expanding the shot pattern on a shot where precision is of the essence.

In addition the rear slope on # 6 is nominal

With respect to # 4, at 195 from the red, 177 from the green and 159 from the white, the carry is quite heroic...... with NO wind.

With a one or two club length wind in your face the hole becomes far more challenging to hit, even with the "backstopping" nature of the wind once the ball is in flight above the green.

With the wind, the hole plays considerably shorter, and, the golfer can play it even shorter, playing short of the green, an option that's not available into a good head wind.  Balls hit short into a good wind will remain short, leaving the golfer with a very dicey recovery.

In addition, judging the precise club to carry the chasm, but not carry too far to the deep rear bunker is a challenge with a long club, from 195 playing 220.

One thing we agree on is the incredible nuance the course possesses as an inherent quality.

Joe McBride showed me how to play anything from a driver to a lob-wedge from innumerable locations approaching and recovering to the greens.
That's nuance.

I'm curious if you prefer to hit an iron off # 1 as TEPaul does, or do you prefer a 3-wood or driver ?

And...... WHY ?

Messr. Mucci,
   Redan and Short I just find, in my case, to play easier into the wind if we're talking a one club wind . That is not to say I prefer playing them into the wind. Their great sublety only appears when one is hitting with the smoky sou'wester, which to me is the ideal breeze in which to play the entire course, and for which trade wind McDonald routed the holes. Once the wind gets to two clubs or more, every shot gets tough as nails, and I try and keep everything under the wind, whether hitting into or with it.

   Since the tee on #1 (Valley) was moved back I like to hit driver unless there's a two club wind helping. I aim at either the right or left edge of the bunker across the fairway, depending on how accurate I feel. I like driver because I want to have hit it before I get to #2 (Sahara) tee, where in the trade wind I always hit driver. Interestingly, I've only hit and held the 1st green once with the tee shot, and I was so nervous that I nearly three putted from 20' ! Also wherever possible, I prefer a driver to a three wood because I've always been able to do more with that club (choking down, teeing the ball low, etc.).

  Finally, you're a fortunate man indeed to have been guided around the links by Joe McBride.

[Mark Pearce]

jkinney

Please.  If you are addressing one man the French is Monsieur.  Messieurs (or messr., abbreviated) is for plural addressees).  Its Mons. Mucci, not messr.

Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redan and Short I just find, in my case, to play easier into the wind if we're talking a one club wind .

I think our dialoque/debate goes to a core issue...The golfer's comfort zone.
What's comfortable for you is uncomfortable for me and vice versa.
That may be a function of how we play and think in terms of the presentation of the architectural features and the elements.

On # 6 it may be a function of a nearly perfect shot I hit with the pin back left, into a good wind.  When I left the tee, immediately after hitting the shot, I thought I had a relatively short birdie putt having seen the ball land over the fronting ridge.  By the time I reached the green, the ball had rolled back into the fronting left bunker.  That shot remains indelibly etched in my golfing memory bank.[/color

That is not to say I prefer playing them into the wind. Their great sublety only appears when one is hitting with the smoky sou'wester, which to me is the ideal breeze in which to play the entire course, and for which trade wind McDonald routed the holes.

I believe that both NGLA and Shinnecock are routed and designed with that prevailing wind in mind, although, with NGLA, the configuration of the property pretty much dictated an out and back routing.

Not being familiar with Southampton and not having played enough times at Sebonack, are the holes routed at those courses with the SW wind in mind ?[/color]

Once the wind gets to two clubs or more, every shot gets tough as nails, and I try and keep everything under the wind, whether hitting into or with it.

Two club length winds with firm & fast conditions make the course a difficult challenge.  However, I think the sportiness of the challenge is retained.[/color]

Since the tee on #1 (Valley) was moved back I like to hit driver unless there's a two club wind helping. I aim at either the right or left edge of the bunker across the fairway, depending on how accurate I feel.

I've always hit driver at that bunker, trying to draw the ball back toward the green.  Only that Idiot-savant, TEPaul uses a 3-iron off the tee, leaving himself a full 5 iron into that green into the wind.[/color]

I like driver because I want to have hit it before I get to #2 (Sahara) tee, where in the trade wind I always hit driver. Interestingly, I've only hit and held the 1st green once with the tee shot, and I was so nervous that I nearly three putted from 20' !

At speed, I think it's the most frightening 1st green in golf.[/color]

Also wherever possible, I prefer a driver to a three wood because I've always been able to do more with that club (choking down, teeing the ball low, etc.).

Finally, you're a fortunate man indeed to have been guided around the links by Joe McBride.

Joe was a good friend who had an enormous repetoire of shots for NGLA.

I remember on # 1, # 7 and # 12 how he showed me how to hit anything from driver to L-wedge from 40 to 5 yards off # 1 and # 7 and how to hit an incredible array of shots into # 12 on the approach.

He had a good imagination for creating a variety of shots and the ability to execute them.

Joe always had that devilish twinkle in his eyes. 
He used to get me in trouble when I was dating my wife.
He was very fond of her, and every time he'd see her, he'd ask her if we had set a date to get married yet.  Sometimes he'd ask the question in my presence, saying, "when are you going to marry this girl ?"   The days following those conversations were a little tense.  I would call him up the next day and tell him I loved him, but, that he had to stop bringing that subject up, as it was causing me a lot of grief.
Each time, before we hung up the phone, he'd agree to never do it again.
So, I thought I could breath a little easier during the summer.

Unfortunately, the next time he was in her company, he'd ask the same question, and I'd make the same phone call the next day.

But, he was right, I should have married her sooner.  He was a lot of fun and a ferocious competitor.
[/color]

[jkinney]

Great stories about Joe McBride, Patrick. Sounds like he was a Godfather to you in the best sense of the word.
With regard to Sebonack, I've not yet played it and so can't comment intelligently. Your comment about "the golfers comfort zone" leads me to an important point left out in previous posts - how fantastic The National is as a MATCH PLAY golf course, simply the best for that format that I've ever seen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,

I'd agree.

But, when it's fast & firm, medal play, with some of those challenging hole locations can be an incredibly devilish challenge.

The neat thing about the National Singles is that you get to play both Medal and Match play

[John Kirk]

My host last year opened his course comments on the first tee by saying that the NGLA was the greatest risk/reward course in the world.  I think it would be fair to make a correlation between a risk/reward course and a match play course.

Until now, I haven't commented here about my great day at the National, during which the company I kept was at least as entertaining as the course itself.  Here is my primary comment:  Although the shorter and hillier holes at the beginning and end of the round tend to garner the most attention, my favorite part of the course was the long holes that take you out and back along the high ground.  By memory, I believe they went Road, Bottle, Long, Shinnecock, Double Plateau, and Sebonack. I felt they were as good as golf ever gets, and my favorite was the Bottle hole.  I have an idea for a discussion of the Bottle, and may start that this week.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Kirk,

If I could only play 3 holes for the rest of my life, and they had to be from one golf course, and they had to be a par 3, par 4 and par 5, they'd be the 6th, 8th and 18th holes at NGLA

[Tim Bert]

John Kirk,

If I could only play 3 holes for the rest of my life, and they had to be from one golf course, and they had to be a par 3, par 4 and par 5, they'd be the 6th, 8th and 18th holes at NGLA

Now there's a good topic for a thread.  It would be interesting to see what folks could come up with here.  We should try it for any course you've played and then again for any course not in the world 100 so we can generate some diverse answers.

[jkinney]

John Kirk,

If I could only play 3 holes for the rest of my life, and they had to be from one golf course, and they had to be a par 3, par 4 and par 5, they'd be the 6th, 8th and 18th holes at NGLA

For me it's the 4th, the 17th and the 18th, also at The National. the 17th tee is my favorite spot in the whole wide world.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Kirk,

If I could only play 3 holes for the rest of my life, and they had to be from one golf course, and they had to be a par 3, par 4 and par 5, they'd be the 6th, 8th and 18th holes at NGLA

Now there's a good topic for a thread.  It would be interesting to see what folks could come up with here.  We should try it for any course you've played and then again for any course not in the world 100 so we can generate some diverse answers.

Tim,

It was either the very first thread I posted on GCA.com, or one that I posted shortly after being a participant on GCA.com.

Perhaps someone with search skills could retrieve it.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKinney,

I don't find the variety and excitement in all facets of the game at # 4 like I do at # 6, which I find to be much "sportier" in nature.

On # 4 there are 3 basic shots, a short draw, a regular draw, and for the very skilled a good high cut.  You're also deprived of seeing your ball "play" out.

While it's a great hole, playing it every day wouldn't give me the same variety and enjoyment.

But, I understand your choice, many favor it over # 6.

Alternatively, I wouldn't mind playing # 13 from the current tee and from a tee to the back and left of # 12 green.

This way the hole could play like # 7 and # 11 at TOC, which is how I believe CBM intended it.

The vista from # 17 is stunning.

I prefer playing the hole into a North wind.
I think the bunker scheme becomes more confusing to the golfer, much more hazardous to the golfer under those conditions.  I'd also like to try playing it from the far right side tee.

I like the demands on # 8.
Off the tee, on the approach and on any recovery.

I especially like it when they position the flag on # 8 green such that it looks like the flag is suspended off the green, out in space to the right of the green.

It's one of the most incredible and intimidating visuals in golf.
It becomes exponentially more difficult to play when the lie in the fairway which promotes left to right ball flight is combined with the deception fed to the eye by the architectural features when the flag/pin are in their outer space locations.  Add in a little wind in your face, which is prevailing, and the hole achieves world class status.

The elevated, fortress like green with its shaved front and deep bunkers in front, and cliff like right flank present a formidable opponent, in look, mind and physical challenge.

Putting toward the hole when the cut is cut near the front or right flank is equally intimidating and can be disastrous when the greens are at speed.

If I could only play one course for the rest of my life, on a daily basis, NGLA gets my vote by a wide margin.

[jkinney]

"If I could only play one course for the rest of my life, on a daily basis, NGLA gets my vote by a wide margin."

I've been arguing in the top 100 classic thread over the last few days that Shinnecock should be #1. , but I can at the same time agree with your statement above. I'd pick the greatest golfing ground , ( by Crenshaw's assessment), over the greatest design - were I forced into such a Hobson's choice - because there's no place I'd rather be than on the grounds of The National.

I suspect that's the way most GCA members feel about their "if I could only play one" course, whichever it is.
It's where they're most comfortable and happiest.

[Matthew Hunt]

Would the wind be stong enough to require you to at the Bunker for a centre pin placement, I love such shots and it still amazes me how many people are imitated by them.

Matt

[John Kirk]

"If I could only play one course for the rest of my life, on a daily basis, NGLA gets my vote by a wide margin."

I've been arguing in the top 100 classic thread over the last few days that Shinnecock should be #1. , but I can at the same time agree with your statement above. I'd pick the greatest golfing ground , ( by Crenshaw's assessment), over the greatest design - were I forced into such a Hobson's choice - because there's no place I'd rather be than on the grounds of The National.

I suspect that's the way most GCA members feel about their "if I could only play one" course, whichever it is.
It's where they're most comfortable and happiest.

I agree, and in my case, if I could play one course, it would be Ballyneal.  The decision is largely based on familiarity and sentimental attachment.

[wsmorrison]

If I could only play one course for the rest of my life, it would be Shinnecock Hills, by an even wider margin    It is a course you can play in the early, prime and latest stages of life.

[Damon Groves]

Just got back from Bandon and played the 10 holes at Old Mac. Absolutely SIIIICCCCKKKK!!!!! If you love links then you will love Old Mac. The Hell Bunker is overwhelming, beautiful and frightening all at once, the bunkering all over is incredible and the 10 holes that are there are awesome. In playing the short I hit it fat and ended up on the front of the green. Pin was all the way in the back so hammered a put up the backstop at the back of the green and it went up and came back down to 8 feet from the hole. Putted in for par but the point is just pure links fun. The road hole is awesome too. Even with how new everything is I was amazed at how good of condition the course and greens are already in. My vote is that this will be the best of the four courses and an instant classic. Well done Tom Doak and Jim Urbina.

[herrstein]

I am so jealous! Goodness gracious!
Are you guys going to have the cojones to build the Biarritz at 300 yards? (Maybe 295 to make it seem reasonable ;-)) That's what I always wanted to do.
Doug Stein

[Bill_McBride]

I am so jealous! Goodness gracious!
Are you guys going to have the cojones to build the Biarritz at 300 yards? (Maybe 295 to make it seem reasonable ;-)) That's what I always wanted to do.
Doug Stein

How long was #8 at Oakmont for the last Open there?  I assume you are talking tips and we mortals would play from 240.....

[Tom Jefferson]

I believe the Biarritz hole at Old Mac measures in the 175-210 range. The green is approximately 22,000 ft.sq., and, as one might imagine, is VERY deep.  There is GREAT variety in the effective length of the shot.
 
I am a relatively short hitter, and have been playing 4-6 irons, to a green that is quite downhill and often downwind.  I believe it will be quite a challenge to play to a front flag with our dominating summer winds...so far I have not seen a true front cup location.  The back cup locations seem more accessable, and fun.

The tee is backed up to the precipice/sand bluff above the ocean, and as such there will not be any stretching of this hole, even if the architects so desired.

Tom

[Doug Wright]

Since I just returned from Bandon I've started reading threads about the course, as well as the fantastic course profile ( I try not to read about courses I haven't played before I play them just as I try not to read movie reviews before seeing the movie). I haven't read all 8 pages of this thread yet but wanted to post some observations while fresh in my mind.

The Short at Old Macdonald is a fantastic hole. It plays so differently from most any other hole one has ever played because one is lulled into a (very false) sense of security due to the size of the green. The green is indeed massive and pretty easy to hit with a short iron, but the hole locations are varied and intriguing. In our first round at the resort, which was at Old Macdonald, the pin position on #5 was front right. One of my colleagues--a first timer at Bandon--putted from above the hole off the green and into the deep right greenside bunker where a triple bogey was his fate. "Welcome to Bandon," I said. On our third round at Old Macdonald, a gentleman in the group in front of us made a hole in one on a shot to a pin in the middle of the green. It was his first in 45 years and the second on the hole since opening according to a marshall, who said the shot rolled off a slope a good 15-20 feet before falling into the hole. It must have been a thrill for the golfer and his group to watch the ball roll slowly towards the cup and disappear. Like many holes at Old Macdonald, the greens present unique challenges. One is happy to have a green in regulation, only to walk off with head shaking after another three (or 4) putt [which happened to two of us at the Biarritz]. This can be frustrating, but also leaves one appreciating the handiiwork that leads to the result.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

How would you assess the 5th at OM versus the 5th at BT ?

Is the handiwork / challenge better at one versus the other and if you had a preference which hole would it be ?

[Bill_McBride]

The main challenge of the Short Hole at the Old Course - other than the front center which can be a nightmare     - ius the sheer size of the double green.  A careless shot can easily wind up 40' away, and the resulting 3 putt will be demoralizing.

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