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Anthony Gray

What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« on: September 22, 2010, 09:53:59 PM »

      Terrain? Budget? Drainage? What will be said on GCA? Routing? Inexperienced people want to know.

    ARG

« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 10:00:07 PM by Anthony Gray »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2010, 09:56:00 PM »
ARG,

Welcome back. How is it?


Just like in golf, the architects biggest obstacle is their brain.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ian Andrew

Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2010, 10:48:20 PM »
In all seriousness - it's finding work.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2010, 05:09:12 AM »
I reckon that it might be making a bunch of good ideas in theory and on the drawing board look and work as planned when actually built on the ground...

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2010, 06:07:13 AM »

Their conscience, and inward battle with themselves to give the client what they really want and need rather that what they thing they want and need.

I believe if you seek and pay for advice from a professional then you should follow his recommendations – as long as you have given him all the relevant information.in the first place. The main problem is finding a professional in the first place that ticks all the boxes ;)

Melvyn

PS The Man is back, perhaps  2" shorter but still a man in my eyes 8)

PCCraig

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Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2010, 10:06:50 AM »
Cruden Bay
H.P.S.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2010, 10:09:01 AM »
The client's ideas.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2010, 10:14:39 AM »
Clients with pockets deep enough to stay current on invoices.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2010, 11:16:26 AM »

Biggest obstacles:

Keeping clients motivated in tough times

Regulations

Proper business objectives

All the other stuff, terrain, budget, drainage routing, are part of a process that accomplished architects face often enough that they are generally not obstacles.  Just part of a process of solutions.

Lester

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2010, 12:10:22 PM »
With so much golf design work now focused on renovations, the architects biggest obstacles are now the ones presented by club members and committees.  Yes, the very folks who hire architects with all the best intentions do throw up some of the most difficult and delicate hurdles to overcome.

While it is good that at least some of this work exists, and for that I am thankful, it still means that the architect is often defending their ideas to attorneys, accountants, farmers (at least where I do some of my work), and business owners of all stripe who all have their ideas of what needs to be done to their course.  Reconciling these very disparate ideologies is a real challenge and the ones who are successful in doing this have the best chance of producing the best results for these clients.

As an example, in old-timey architecture you often found bunkering in odd spots for very good reasons, but when renovating a course where there maybe weren't any oddly-placed bunkers, like 30 yards in front of a green on a 430 yard hole, it is tough to convince these folks of the rationale for doing so.  They are simply used to seeing bunkers at the landing area and at the green edge, no more, no less.  So, really, it becomes a communication challenge which should be the responsibility of the architect.  Just one more skill the architect must possess to survive.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2010, 02:01:40 PM »
The biggest obstacle for me as a lower end UK architect is money. Trying to get as much value out of that land for the least money. The real world for me is not 400 acre properties, but trying to get everything into 125 acres, be good enough to hole regional events and cost say $1M and set things up so they can make a profit and survive. My secondary obstacles will be the clay subsoils, footpaths and health and safety regulations and redtape to get the planning.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2010, 02:13:09 PM »
Justifying the very existence of a golf architect in the first place....
many committees, boards and club champions already know more about the design than an architect and if he has not been on the tour or some other type of golf accomplishment then the opinion is not worth much to many of them....again ..there are exceptions but for the most part what they will tell you while in their presence and once you are gone will vary greatly....in 15,500 clubs they will ask the supt..."can't you get this done?" and he of course thinks he can..and possibly can..so he answers back with the only answer he can give....YES...he probably has always wanted to give it a shot anyway and the board is much more willing to spend money on a guy with some earthmoving equipment under the direction of the supt...and then that contractor shows up...he completely baffles the supt with where he has been and what he has done....and the fun begins....
This business has always been the wild west and will continue....it is amazing how many people will tell you they worked for Pete Dye or some other guy...especially Class B shapers....you later find out they were pulling weeds for a week or so....oh well..getting off base....
Back to the question....convincing a cash strapped board they need such....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2010, 02:20:54 PM »
Dear Anthony,

     I can't believe a designer would have to deal with silly ideas from armchair architects.

Sincerely,
Joe, Mike, and Geoff


 ;)  ;D



@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2010, 05:50:46 PM »

Dear Joe and Friends

Sometimes architects should listen to their end customers - the ordinary golfers and what he/she thinks. Perhaps real designs and hazards would be in play and not jokes like Island Greens.

Slow thinking that adds to slow play and potentially Golf Rage.- none wanted on our golf courses – right. :P

Then what about courses with bunkers everywhere, but nowhere near where they may be most affective to combat the long hitters, another Friday afternoon rush design perhaps. :o

I think there are some serious problems out there that allows this site to question the mental state of an architect from time to time or are we saying that that architects are perfect, it’s just the quality of their game that lets them down – more precise is their game good enough to actually understand the architecture???? ;D

Melvyn

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2010, 04:37:04 AM »
It's noticeable that every working architect on this thread has focused on the business side of things... I'm not sure that was what Anthony had in mind...

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2010, 06:45:47 AM »
It's noticeable that every working architect on this thread has focused on the business side of things... I'm not sure that was what Anthony had in mind...

Ally if I had to try and think of something that might could go away from the business side...but yet is probably still involved witht he business side...it would be perception of design based on maintenance quality.  The average person equates good maintenance with good design.  The architect is at the mercy of the owner as to how a course is maintained and his design is perceived as good or bad due to such.  I have seen plenty of average to below average golf courses touted highly due to maintenance budgets and some really good courses slammed due to lack of such.  And again it tells you where design stands in the order of things with the public....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2010, 07:21:44 AM »
It's noticeable that every working architect on this thread has focused on the business side of things... I'm not sure that was what Anthony had in mind...

Ally if I had to try and think of something that might could go away from the business side...but yet is probably still involved witht he business side...it would be perception of design based on maintenance quality.  The average person equates good maintenance with good design.  The architect is at the mercy of the owner as to how a course is maintained and his design is perceived as good or bad due to such.  I have seen plenty of average to below average golf courses touted highly due to maintenance budgets and some really good courses slammed due to lack of such.  And again it tells you where design stands in the order of things with the public....

I couldn't agree more with this...

Every non-GCA site I see with keen and generally informed golfers reviewing & discussing courses focuses primarily on maintenance... A course will get a 5 star review or a 1 star review based on how the greens were playing on a particular day... Not only does it ignore that 'x' club has twice the maintenance budget that 'y' club does, it also is very seasonal...People were giving awful reviews to some courses early this summer based on conditioning, completely casting aside the fact that growth was slow due to the cold and the the very same courses were in wonderful condition 4 weeks after they left...

Condition certainly trumps design when it comes to the way 99% of golfers rate a golf course...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2010, 07:53:54 AM »
Of course, that all ties together, especially in a summer like this one.  I love rolling greens (and green edges) but know from experience that the supers will have trouble keeping any knob on a green in as good a shape as more level areas.  This is especially true on the edges where the clean up pass causes more stress.  I know certain combos of vertical dips/rises and green shapes will funnel traffic adding to the stress.

So, do I keep designing to please the golf club atlas crowd for quality design features about 0.000001% of golfers will recognize, or do I dumb it down golf wise to please the superintendent, and coincidentally, increase the quality of my own design reviews in the trade press?  Remember that the super/owner/management company is there during construction and the golf club atlas crew is not, so its easier to go that direction.

To be honest, that is a perfect example of listening to the ordinary golfer in design, albeit, filtered through the management company, who hear in the pro shop the standard litany of complaints.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2010, 11:25:34 AM »
Ally,

It should tell you that architects focus on a myriad of obstacles on each project,  The more experienced the architect, the more the obsatcles he addresses become "the business side".  The design side for an experienced architect is more the foundation of his knowledge.  Once he has completed 20 or 30 projects he is generally adept at overcoming design obstacles.  He then must focus on the things that make that project possible and successful.

Lester

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2010, 03:14:42 PM »
Anthony,

I know it's not the sort of answer you were looking for, but I think every architect's biggest obstacle is his own ego.  And I'm not just talking about the big signature guys.  Even the underpaid majority are pretty sure they have got it all figured out and are really the best designer out there, and are just held back by the vagaries of life.

It's an easy mistake.  We are the focus of marketing campaigns because just marketing golf is too simple for most clients to understand.  But our work is supposed to be about golf and not about ourselves.

In reality, everyone who has got anything to build should focus the majority of their attention on what they're building.  If they do that, and they are half as good as they think, business will take care of itself.


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2010, 01:36:02 PM »
Kelly - Just a thought but moulding a green complex out of plasticine (modelling clay) can be quite a easy way to communicate if your not so good at drawing, esp useful to foreign shapers or indeed shapers (360s) with no experience.  Sort of do it at a 1/100 scale but exaggerate the slopes a bit. The good thing about using modelling clay is you can push the clay about a bit with your fingers and make changes... but u can look at eye leveland see the shapes and get your thought plan into the model.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What are the architects biggest obstacles?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2010, 01:55:20 PM »

Shapers, in Old Tom’s day were other Professionals or Green Keepers who had not yet secured a permanent job with any club so got involved in the construction of the Greens. One name comes to mind George Colburn and his brother – George became the Professional at Portmarnock by the end of the 19th Century. He worked on the Greens for the New Course under Old Tom instruction in 1894 so I suppose he was an early shaper.

Do not believe he worked to drawings, perhaps the odd model though and certainly verbal instructions

Melvyn