[PThomas]

I was reading the Wannamoiset thread and someone mentioned the thought that "par is just a number"...which made the following pop into my mind:

say you   are in charge of setting up a tournament where no par figures will be on the scorecard...of course , for the vast majority of holes, I would think, deducing what par is is pretty simple...i.e., a 600 yard hole is very probably a par 5

your job is to pick a course that would have the greatest number of holes where one might have some doubts as to the par of each hole...for example, I played the new Chicago Highlands yesterday and the 14th hole there, a par 4, was only 233 from the middle of 5 tees...certainly one could argue that it should play as a par 3

get the idea?  what course due to things such as flexibility of tee lengths, size of greens, etc., would be the best for the "No Par Open"?

also factor in things like elevation...

[JESII]

McCall Field - Philadelphia, PA.

[JESII]

Concord - The Green Monster - somewhere in the Catskills, NY

[Mike Wagner]

Erin Hills would be an intersting one for this.  It can set up from 6200 (or so) to 8200.

[Tim Gavrich]

Assuming you were free to move the tees around from day to day, wouldn't the longest courses necessarily be the most flexible.  If so, I nominate The International (Pines Course) in Bolton, MA, with nine holes of 460 yards or longer.

[PCCraig]

Easy...wouldn't it be Rich Harvest Farms?? I thought each hole can technically be played as a par-3, 4, or 5, due to all kinds of different tees and alternate fairways. I would assume that a "no par open" would require more than just moving tees up and back.

[PThomas]

. I would assume that a "no par open" would require more than just moving tees up and back.

correct Pat

[Charlie Goerges]

NGLA certainly has to be in the discussion. Depending on the wind, there might be no par 5s for the tour guys. Number 2 could be a par 3 or 4 from the exact same position depending on conditions (and based on what I remember of Pat Mucci's tour of the place). Lots of holes that would be half-par for us, but also many holes that could be drivable par 4s for tour players.

In reality the only time tour players would be scratching their heads is a short 5/long 4 type situation. I would think 2 at NGLA would be the extreme exception at the short end of the spectrum, certainly not the rule.

[Mike Benham]

. I would assume that a "no par open" would require more than just moving tees up and back.

correct Pat

Like what?  What other changes can you make?  Move a green, a bunker? 

[PThomas]

. I would assume that a "no par open" would require more than just moving tees up and back.

correct Pat

when is started this thread, i wondered if i would get my main point across, and perhaps i didnt..

i am thinking of a course where the greens and tees offer some options, in combination with factors like the elevation of certain holes making enough difference to affect tee shots and/or approach shots, (ex - 28 at Kapalua, which plays like a long par 4 or really easy par 5)...which course would have the most holes like 18 at Kapalua whereby par would not be crystal clear...unlike , for ex, a straight flat 440 yd hole which would in all likelyhood be a par 4?

Charlie was getting at what I was thinking with some of his thoughts on NGLA...maybe i can get them to host this tournament for me

[Mark Pearce]

Am I missing something or isn't the Old Course the obvious option?  All those double greens must provide all sorts of options, even as far as playing it in reverse.

[Mike Demetriou]

Ballyneal fits the bill perfectly - since there are some terrific short fives and long fours in play already...

[Pete_Pittock]

I understand that Sevilano Links can range anywhere from a par 72 to a par 90.

[Ronald Montesano]

Jim Sullivan...you're mixing your sports...the green monster is in Fenway Park in Boston.  The Monster @ The Concord is the overly-enthusiastic-about-sadism course in the Catskills.  From the tips, it has more unmanageable forced carries than any course i know (and I've played a number of the beyond-difficult courses in New York, including Saratoga National and Kaluhyat, from the tips.  I don't get the value of The Monster, although I respect the fact that others among this forum, do.

[Paul Richards]

>I played the new Chicago Highlands yesterday and the 14th hole there, a par 4, was only 233 from the middle of 5 tees...certainly one could argue that it should play as a par 3

Paul, please check the scorecard.  The middle tees are closer to 283 than 233.  That being said, it is a really fun hole to 'have a go at it'!!

[Jason Topp]

Grandview in Des Moines Iowa is 5300 yards par 70.

6 of the par 4's are drivable for someone who hits it 260 off the tee.  5 others likely would be reachable for long hitting tour players (particularly with wind).  The par 5 is reachable for all tour pros (510, albeit uphill).  They used to hold an 8 inch cup stroke play event there that was a difficult psychological challenge because any par felt like a bogey and if you left a putt short you wanted to break a club.

http://www.oobgolf.com/courses/scorecard.php?id=5593

[Ronald Montesano]

Why does a course have to be flexible?  If there is no par, who cares about flexibility?

[Mike Nuzzo]

It's Wolf Point
Don and I couldn't agree on par - maybe still don't
And when Don sets it up for afternoon play no one has any idea of the par
(they tell him they have never seen the same course twice)
the problem is it would be a very small tournament

[Ben Sims]

It's Wolf Point
Don and I couldn't agree on par - maybe still don't
And when Don sets it up for afternoon play no one has any idea of the par
(they tell him they have never seen the same course twice)
the problem is it would be a very small tournament

Tons of GCA'ers have seen Ballyneal, and not so many at Wolf Point.  So for those of you that have seen Ballyneal, imagine it's flexibility to par.  Then multiply that times 2 and you get a sense of how incredibly different WP can be. 

I count seven holes just off the top of my head that change an entire shot of difficulty by just changing a hole location or a yardage by 50 yards or so. 

[Tom_Doak]

I'll nominate The Sheep Ranch, since it has NO PAR.

[Ben Sims]

I'll nominate The Sheep Ranch, since it has NO PAR.

Damn.  Forgot that one.  But Wolf Point's card has NO PAR as well. EDIT...went and checked the card.  Par 71.  My bad

I may be the only guy here that's played all three no tee, no par (correction, B'Neal has par) modern courses.  Wolf Point may be just as flexible as Sheep Ranch now that I think about it.  

[John Moore II]

I understand that Sevilano Links can range anywhere from a par 72 to a par 90.

I thought the par 5 tees for every hole had not yet been constructed. I could be wrong though. I do know that is the intention though.

[Paul Richards]

I'll nominate The Sheep Ranch, since it has NO PAR.

Tom, good point.  The short, blind par 3 along the cliffs?  I knocked it an inch away. 

Under any scoring  system, that coulda been an 'ace'...

When you dream, dream big!

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