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DMoriarty

Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposal
« on: May 13, 2003, 01:18:13 PM »
Public access players often face two related problems at affordable, quality designs:  slow play and the scarcity of tee times.  One exacerbates the other-- miss out on the early morning times and you are much more likely to suffer through a 5-6 hour round.

This holds true Rustic Canyon.  As would be expected at such a quality course with such a reasonable price, morning tee times are very precious.  If you don't get through by phone-- between 6 and 6:10 am the week before, you are looking at a mid-afternoon time.  (Or you can show up at 5 in the morning and wait in line, for next week.)    

As for Pace of Play, Rustic could be much worse-- It is still quicker for me to drive 40 miles on a Saturday morning - play Rustic - drive home; than it is to play my neighborhood course, Rancho Park, if I could get a time.  But it could also be much better-- Rounds sometimes approach 5 hours.

So, I have recently been trying to convince the pro at Rustic Canyon to do something about BOTH.  

The proposal is simple and is basically a modified version of Pete Galea's laudable Fast Play Tuesday's . . . Sundays etc. where golfers finishing in less than 4 hours get a free drink:

If a foursome finishes in under 4 hours on the weekend, they receive a "priority tee time" for the weekend after next. (Cant be the next weekend bc those times are already gone.)  The priority time would simply consist of the opportunity to make any time 7 1/2 days in advance-- call on Friday afternoon for next Saturday's times, Saturday afternoon for next Sundays.)  

The idea is that diligent golfers who play regularly would begin to dominate the early weekend times, thus setting the pace for the rest of the day. Hopefully, over time, more and more regular golfers would occupy the regular times.  The course could build a regular, returning client base, and the nomadic pub-links might eventually feel a sense of loyalty and community that is often missing from public access golf.

A few Cons:  
--In the beginning there would be much complaining about the pace of preceding groups ("Not fair! We would have made it, but for the snails in front of us!")  The starters would have to draw a firm "no excuses" line in the sand, and let people know that it is somewhat a luck of the draw proposition.  Also, over time, this problem might work itself out, as slow golfers are weeded out.
-- There might be some vigilantes marshalling on the course ("Speed up or get the hell out of my way!")    Obviously, you wouldnt want this to get ugly, but on the other hand it might help everyone laggards hurry along if they knew that they were costing those behind a good tee time.  A little positive peer pressure.

Has anyone tried this or anything, and if so, what were the results?

Any questions, suggestions on how to implement or improve such a program?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2003, 01:36:38 PM »
Hi David!

You highlight the main problems with public access play, and this all seems to me like one hell of a great idea.  

The only issue I see is a problem we witnessed first hand at Pajaro Valley:  one group actually told the nice folks in the shop, as well as the marshalls, something to the effect of "screw you, I could give a crap about a free drink, I paid my fee and I'm gonna take however long I want."

Rustic is so popular, you have to believe there are MANY first-timers and one-time-onliers (ie visitors) there any given weekend and these, as well as some others, generally would care less about a future priority tee time.  Many could take the attitude of the gentleman at Pajaro and the system could come crashing down, a victim of the course's popularity.  Again, this is worst case scenario, but what to do re folks like this?  Given all it takes is one recalcitrant group to slow it down for everyone, this seems to me to be a fair question....

Hopefully the chances of facing people like this is slim, but damn our experience at Pajaro scares me.

In any case trying to do SOMETHING seems to me to be a great idea, and this is one hell of a good start.  Hopefully the management at Rustic will be kinder to its regulars than many of the courses up here, where regulars are treated with more disdain than preference (that's the case at my home Santa Teresa without a doubt)....

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2003, 01:45:12 PM »
Mike - David mentions Pete's program as the role model here... it seems to work VERY well there at Pajaro, the "golfer" we met notwithstanding.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou_Duran

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Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2003, 01:52:18 PM »
As we all know, the slowest group sets the pace.  Unless management is strongly motivated to develop a fast pace culture, it is unlikely to happen as a result of the plan suggested by DM.  At a course like RC which appears to be operating at capacity, it can be aggresive on how it polices its play without great fear of losing revenues.  One way may be to make the premium times available for "fast play only", and the late afternoon times for beginners, families, laggards, etc.  Of course, this would require some notice to the client base, as well as an explanation as to why this is desirable.  Also, the course may wish to consider ways to expeditie play such as clearing high grass and trash near the playing areas, maintain its water features in a way that discourages frogging, and provide well-mannered, but stern "ambassadors" to keep play moving.  We now think that a four hour round is fast.  It might be at RC, but I like the British model of under three hours much better.  Good luck in solving the problem, David.  Let us know what works.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy_Lipschultz

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2003, 01:53:56 PM »
I think if golfers played more matches, rather than medal play, the pace of play would quicken. Concede, pick up your ball and move on to the next hole.

At Rustic the pace gets bogged down by:
--Golfers searching for their balls in the ESAs
--Not much, if any, marshall presence on the course. Actually, the only marshall would be the perky blonde on the beverage cart who is under orders to make sure no one brings in off-campus food or beverage.
--The mesmerizing view of the driving range from the 18th tee which so transfixes golfers, they forget to tee off ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2003, 02:01:38 PM »
David:

I like what you have in mind but also would support Mike Benham's suggestion of a stick as well as a carrott.

Why not simply require some form of ID, track players and ban anyone who didn't meet a defined time standard from playing before 2:00 PM?

My impression is that you look forward to playing Rustic Canyon for years to come. Wouldn't anyone with the same desire be quite happy with a policy that enforced something like a 4 hour round before 2:00 PM?

As for ID, either a driver's license or something issued by the course could be used.

I wouldn't be so worried that people would always argue "it was the guys in front". Simply have a few rangers authorized to tag real offenders and give a pass to groups effected.

Tom Huckaby mentions the "I paid my green fee mentality". This tells me that the folks in the pro shop need to be clear up front before taking anyone's money. The message has to be clear: play slow and your playing privileges will be restricted.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

THuckaby2

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2003, 02:08:34 PM »
Great stuff, all of it.  I still worry about the one-timers and first-timers and folks like the Gentleman of Pajaro (great name for a Shakespeare play), especially at a high-profile course like Rustic, but give a stick and a carrot, make certain times "fast play only" and that make for a hell of a program.

It would help the regulars and then also be even MORE of an enticement for right-thinking golfers to play the course, as occurs at Pajaro up here....

Of course I as a visitor want something other than a chance at priority tee-times as a reward... could you make it a choice of that or a free beer?   ;)

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2003, 03:14:14 PM »
I have sometimes thought about a Rating System. Thus for weekends and holidays, golfers would self rate themselves the first time.

A's - get to tee off before 9:00 AM and must finish in under 4 hours.

B's - get to tee off from 9-11 AM and must finish in under 4:30 minutes

C's - can't play in the morning.

If they fail to meet their times, they drop down a rating. Problem of course is that for-profit courses are in a tough position. The golfer that gets a rating dropped has the option to leave the facility and go somewhere else. Thus, I can only really see it working at a Muni or private course that has a captive audience. Thus, the program is implemented for the good of all players - ie- more players could play in a day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

tonyt

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2003, 03:16:42 PM »
Simply let the Pirates of Pajaro, and all other patrons know that their playing fee does not entitle them to a round at Rustic Canyon. It entitles them to a sub four hour round at Rustic Canyon. Not through nine in under two hours fifteen minutes? Off you come. Back nine forfeited.

Make it clear at time of booking. If patrons don't like the sound of such a policy at time of booking, that's ok. They shall not be forced into then booking and coming to play. Only those willing to play by those rules will book.

To not hurt groups that are affected in some way (lose a ball on the 9th playing behind a group that JUST makes the time limit, or playing behind a group that miises the target), simply add that there must be a hole lost to the group ahead for the penalty to apply. Dilutes the harshness, but still makes the overall message loud and clear.

Also prevents too much of a monopolising policy on keeping all the early times for good regulars. The dilligent visitor from abroad (like me!) can book early.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy_Lipschultz

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2003, 03:17:44 PM »
Mike:

Does A,B and C refer to the ability level of the player or their ability to play in a certain amount of time?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2003, 03:25:11 PM »
Time
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy_Lipschultz

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2003, 03:45:16 PM »
Mike: I don't know about muni's going for that plan; even though it makes all the sense in the world.

I would imagine the elderly player who wants to walk, yet can't walk fast enough to keep up the morning time requirement but at the same time only want to play early in the morning, would be pretty upset at the least and more likely looking to file a class action lawsuit.

His reasoning would be that, as a taxpayer who supports the course....

That's the reason why marshalls at LA's muni courses (read: Rancho Park) will never kick anyone off for slow play. It's too juicy a story for the media. (Cue the visuals of the elderly golfer, toting his beaten bag with 7 clubs through the parking lot as he leaves after being bullied from his beloved course. "His crime? Getting old and walking slower. Joe Blow Eyewitness News. Back to you in the studio")
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

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Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2003, 04:33:30 PM »

Quote
Simply let the Pirates of Pajaro, and all other patrons know that their playing fee does not entitle them to a round at Rustic Canyon. It entitles them to a sub four hour round at Rustic Canyon. Not through nine in under two hours fifteen minutes? Off you come. Back nine forfeited.


A public muny here in Denver, Wellshire GC, had a monitoring policy like TonyT describes for some time. Groups had to pass by the starter shack between 9 and 10 and log in their nine hole time. If it exceeded a certain time they either had to skip the 10th hole to catch up or were kicked off altogether. This seemed to work quite well. I don't think they're doing this now (probably because the demand for rounds there slackened and economics took over) but even so the rounds there seem to be faster than they were in the days before monitoring.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Mike Benham

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Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2003, 04:53:54 PM »

Quote
I don't think they're doing this now (probably because the demand for rounds there slackened and economics took over)

Yep, the good old supply and demand curve that we learned in Econ takes over once again ...

Which leads us to fundamental questions of why there is slow play.

Why is it, or least the perception is, that Private Course golf faster than Public Course golf?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

vince_day

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses: ÊA Proposa
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2003, 05:04:54 PM »
why do people like fast ( or, non-slow) play?  where did the 4-hour "ideal" come from?  personally, i prefer slow play. to me, 5 hours seems ideal. having admitted this, i have to make sure to emphasize that I KEEP PACE.  i realize how important pace of play is to most golfers, but am just curious about the history....
when i was younger and my kids & spouse complained if i was gone too long at the course, i and my golf buddies (all in the same time-constrained boat) would get the first tee-time at the course we played (these were lotteried off annually -- you paid an extra fee) and then we would do things like not putt out if we fell behind the clock -- of course we never stopped at the turn.  but now that i'm an older person, divorced & kids grown, i think five hours would be the true ideal.  when i get out of the matrix and back to zion, i'll make it come true!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2003, 05:17:04 PM »
Mike,
At many privates here in the northeast the pace of play is superb. This is due in part to peer pressure and to members choosing playing times that fit their games. You will also see more waving on of the faster groups at privates than at public courses.

The best policy I have ever seen: After two warnings for slow play the offenders are given a same-day pass for nine holes  later in the afternoon. The policy was made known to all who teed it up, limiting any enforcement problems. It only requires friendly rangers who can tell time and Pro shop staff with some people skills to make it work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2003, 06:53:27 PM »
Thanks for all the comments.  Any more would also be appreciated.

Tom, I tend to agree with Shivas regarding the first timers/one timers/vacationers.  It takes quite a bit of effort to snag one of those early times.  This would be doubly so if the faster players were allowed access to those times before the general public.   So Tom, hopefully the slower "gentleman" at Pajaro who didnt like the program would find himself playing later and later as time went on.  (By the way, if you recall, he was in front of us and we still finished in less than 4 hours, so his disagreement with the program might have been more philosophical than practical.)

Lou, Tom and others:  As for the one bad apple spoiling the barrel, this seems like a real potential problem, at least in the beginning.  The idea would be to eventually build up enough fast golfers taking the early times so as to create a morning block of people who play fast.  Also, these fast playing foursomes would have an incentive to show up every week (or every other week), to play fast, and to always take the early times, to ensure that they did not get behind the first bad apple.  

I see it as sort of a self-implementation over time.  Early on there may only be a few foursomes always grabbing the first few times to guarantee a fast round, but after a while the block might grow to pretty substantial size.  Rustic has 10 minute spacing on the starting times, so they wouldn't need that many fast playing regular foursomes to create a pretty substantial morning block.  What more could a club want but a core of regular golfers who play fast, respect others rights to do the same, and set a good example and pace for everyone else?  

As for adding a "Stick" such as throwing slow people off, or relegating them to late times, I don't necessarily disagree, but also don't see this having a prayer of happening at this particular course.  The course generally takes a pretty non-confrontational, hands-off approach toward its golfer management.  The pro shop/starter does monitor the pace of play, but there are absolutely no marshals.  The pro shop guys will occasionally go out and try to loosen up a log jam, but I think it takes a pretty major log jam to get them out there, and by then it is too late.   I very much doubt the course will go for anything complicated or anything that takes a substantial investment of time, workforce, or any investment of money.  

They are nice guys and it is a pleasant place, and I don't see them doing anything that would piss off a substantial number of players.  They already sell every time, so why would they go out on such limb.

Remember, I have no say at this place, so getting them to do anything will depend on coming up with a plan that benefits them and is easy for them to implement.

Thanks again for the comments and suggestions.  While I doubt it will, I would love to see something like this happen, so any suggestions on how to make it work are greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2003, 06:31:04 AM »
Great stuff, David.  You're right, a "stick" won't work at Rustic and would be completely contrary to the feel of the place.

I remain a doubting Thomas that one-timers still couldn't ruin this, nor am I convinced that it would be a good thing to completely block out ALL visitors (including those who would play fast) from getting one of these early times, as your system would tend to do over the long haul as you say.... Does the course really want all early prime times to be completely unvailable to visitors?  Man for a high-profile course like Rustic that is very dangerous... I know I for one would be pissed as hell if I went through all the motions, called when I was supposed to call, and then was told that all times were taking by fast-playing regulars who got preference.... I'm not certain that's the image Rustic wants to project either, as great as it would be for you personally, David!   ;)

So I remain dubious about preferred tee-times as the carrot.  I'm also not sure a free drink is enough, as the gentleman at Pajaro showed.  And David, he slowed us up LIKE CRAZY as you know - we could have finished in an hour less absent him - the fact we snuck in barely under 4 hours just shows how freakin fast we could play.... god that round felt glacially show... the 4 hour time frame isn't an absolute determiner.

I have no better answers, though, so I say the preferred times idea is one that deserves a chance.  Maybe give an option of a free drink or something else for those who don't want/need this as a perk and who somehow luck into an early time.

Think the management at Rustic is open to this?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2003, 08:07:55 AM »
Mike Benham
I don't think its perception; play at private courses tends to be significantly faster than at public courses.  I'll speculate that the reasons are, in no particular order:
  
     1. Fewer players on the course in the first place.
     2. A generally higher level of knowledge of how to keep
         up pace of play. Related to this might be a generally
         higher level of play, with less time searching for balls,
         fewer putts, etc.
     3. Club members are more likely to be known to the others
         on the course, and therefore less anonymous.  Peer
         pressure can then be exerted.
     4. Golfers who commit large sums to a private club
         membership are likely to play more rounds per year, and
         thereby need to finish more quickly to prevent divorce.
     5. Private club members play the same course frequently,
         and the "first-time" effect is minimized.
     6. The club itself is likely not making its primary revenue
         from the number of golfers on the course, so they
         spread the tee times more effectively.

All of these are, of course, very generalized.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Matt_Ward

Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2003, 09:45:36 AM »
David M:

My good friend -- just keep this in mind regarding slow play at public courses -- the issue begins and ends with management to properly assess it's own situation and how best to correct it. The inmates do not -- or should not -- run asylum!

Many public clubs simply operate by the belief that if they pay "lip service" to the issue everything else will follow -- i.e. let's put up signs that speak to the issue but then do nothing concrete. You know that is nonsense, but management at most clubs that I have seen over the years throughout the country do not want to deal with slow play. The primary emphasis is on collecting fees -- nothing more and nothing less.

Ask yourself this --

1). Does management effectively provide orientation to their staff. Or do they simply give a walkie-talkie and some sort of badge that says "ranger" and send them out onto the course.
Many courses hire seniors or teenagers to do the task. Obviously, many of these folks can do the job but does management effectively train them to do it. It's clear management does orientate staff to operate the cash register -- right?

2). Have you ever seen how many staff fail to properly speak to the paying public? Some of these retired Marine types simply bark out commands and have little customer service savvy.

3). Is the course properly assessed for bottle-necks that generally develop each and every day. Is the staff positioned at these holes to move things along.

4). I agree with you that a "rewards" system can be developed that helps promote faster play. Groups that habitually play slower should be denied prime tee times. Just like your driving record a complete file can be developed that demonstrates whether the player understands the "rules of the road" when playing.

5). Let's not forget that management at many clubs develops a comfy relationship with certain groups who frequently play golf week after week. Is management prepared to deal with these types of people or do they simply target those less connected like the women or junior players?

6). Ask yourself this -- when management permits all the food goodies to be shuffled to the buffaloes playing each week how does this assist slow play or is it just a way for the customer to fork over more $$ while causing more slow play situations to develop?

David, in the final analysis -- management runs the asylum -- not the inmates. A well thought out plan can be assessed -- but it needs to be followed-up upon each and every day. Most clubs are not interested because if they were the whole notion of the creep and crawl rounds you see at many public courses would not happen.

Most facilities view slow play as a no win situation. They simply see it as a way by which the paying customer will be "rushed along" and not appreciate what is happening to their "time" on the course. Most management groups that I have seen over the years don't understand the harm that slow play does do the vast numbers of people who want to play golf without having to do the weekly crawl towards six hour play.

Management is the force that must be diligent -- I don't doubt things can change with human behavior but there must be a consistent carrot / stick philosophy that's ready to tackle it because expecting the lone individual or group to take this on by themselves is not realistic or plausible.

I would ask any person to ask their course management how they address slow play? The answer, or lack thereof, of that question will tell you what's their primary objective. I guarantee you that if you ask most management personnel if rounds being played are up or down in regards to their financial botton line they will know THAT answer. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Fast Play at Public Access Courses:  A Proposa
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2003, 10:18:09 AM »
There are two types of golf courses in the world; ones that were started as a benefit to a group of people, such as private clubs and municipal courses and ones that were built to make money. Unfortunately Rustic Canyon is the latter and that's where the problem comes in. AG's comments on the virtues of private clubs were spot on. The municpal courses of Great Britain are a great example of providing golf as a service to the local residents, they tend to respect the community aspect of the course and are hesitant to hold up their fellow golfers because of it. Their club system also works in their favor by making golfers join a club and play in organized events to get a handicap; this ensures that newcomers are indoctrinated into the necessity for proper pace of play and respect for fellow golfers.

How do golfers take up the game here in So. Cal.? If their parents didn't start them out they probably just put their hat on backwards, went out to the range and beat a couple of buckets and then headed out to the local Muni., where the only question they were ever asked is: Do you have enough cash to cover the green fee? It's this class of unskilled, uneducated golfers who are mostly responsible for slow play issues, here in So. Cal.. There will always be a few obstinant types like your friend from Pajaro, but they do not hold up the pack as much as ignorance and incompetence do.

The bottom line at Rustic, and they are very nice people there, is making money, not friends. What would cause them to hire a marshall, to push people around the course quicker when it doesn't effect their bottom line. They aren't going to get more golfers off, and therefore increase revenue, so they would actually loose money on the deal. To their credit, sending golfers off with a 10 minute spacing is the ultimate consession to improving pace of play; they could jam groups out every 7 minutes and collect 8 more green fees per hour.

So where is the payoff for management with Dave's plan? Building a core of loyal fast, playing golfers doesn't come with any payoff. If I was was in the management there I would reward golfers who play fast and then come in to my snack bar and spend some serious cash. Keep track of patrons with a frequent buyer card and give the choice tee times to guys and gals who always stop for a burger and beers. If those card holders were allowed to make tee times 7.5 days in advance I bet they would make their clubhouse minimum each month to keep that early play privledge.

Incidentally, Sam and I made the drive from SD last Saturday to play Rustic. We had a 1:40 tee time and finished in 5 hours, just as we expected. Sam commented while we were enjoying the vista from the 16th tee that he wished he had a video camera, to get a shot of all the golfers searching for balls at any one time. It was comical to look around the course and count the number of searches taking place! It's the things that make Rustic so great, places of perdition and wildly sloping greens that make it harder for the less skilled golfers, who come out in the afternoon, to complete their round in a reasonable amount of time.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter