Flynn's heretofore unknown role at Cobb's Creek and other architectural insights

[Joe Bausch]

Well, the author of this April 1916 article thinks it is the about to be opened Cobb's Creek Golf Course in the city of Philadelphia.  Some of you might be tired of my unwavering support of this course, but that's what makes horse races.

There is so much more in this article!  For instance, here is the first report we've ever seen that William Flynn was responsible for the greens and bunkering.  And Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, and George Klauder are mentioned as the architects (again).  And Hugh Wilson is mentioned as laying out both of the Merion courses, as well as Seaview (not Ross).  Again.

Enjoy!  (and TP and MC, you are welcome to come back to GCA now!  this could be just the beginning....).

[John Moore II]

I hope this will be enough to bring them back to the cavern here. Its quite a shame not having these guys on board anymore. On a side note, this makes me want to make the drive up to Philly to play this Cobb's Creek place. Must be a mighty fine track.

[Adam Clayman]

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[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe,

What newspaper did this article appear in?



Golf writers are prone to hyperbole. What was the competition then?

[Joe Bausch]

Somehow I think the original title wasn't working so well based upon some of the responses...

so I'm going to change it.

[Tom MacWood]

Joe
Do you think it is fair to conclude Flynn was more of construction specialist in the late teens?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe
Do you think it is fair to conclude Flynn was more of construction specialist in the late teens?

Tom, I think more data needs to be mined to say with any certainty.  But my guess is even during the Cobb's Creek time Flynn was slowly but surely getting more into architecture and not just strictly a construction guy, although I wouldn't be surprised if he frequently put his touches on courses even in the early days.  He appears to have been a very talented fellow.

[JNC Lyon]

Very cool article.  I played Cobbs Creek on Walker Cup weekend this fall.  Many of the greens (I am thinking of 2, 12, and 18) compare well with the lay-of-the-land greens at Merion's 4th and 5th holes.

Unfortunately the routing at Cobbs has changed since the original construction.  As a result, the tee for the 12th hole was relocated, and the hole is much different now.  The green is now used for the short par three sixth.  How much work would be needed to relocate the tee to the current 14th tee?  It would mean shortening the 7th hole, but from what I gather the 7th (originally the 9th hole) was a short par four to begin with. 

Also unfortunate is the loss of the old par-five 13th.  It looks the second shot across Cobbs Creek was very strategic and thrilling.  Unlike the old 12th, this hole will not be restored unless the city buys back the driving range next store.

Fortunately, Cobbs Creek 3rd-5th holes still make fantastic use of the creek.  3 and 5 are both excellent, albeit overgrown, short par fours.

Along with the 3rd, my two favorites on the course are the current 12th (originally the 7th), and the 18th.  The 12th is a great long par four to redan-style greensite.  The 18th is a very unique finishing hole, with a green that is wicked at any speed.

[Kyle Harris]

JNC Lyon,

We're not sure if 13 ever "crossed" Cobb's Creek, and it certainly didn't on the second shot. Doing so would put the old 13th Fairway on McCall Field Club next door!

It's likely the tee was on the other side of the creek, but the rest of the hole stayed on one side.

[JNC Lyon]

Kyle,

I may be mistaken about 13 and the location of Cobbs Creek.  However, the article does list the creek as a hazard for the original 12-14.  This is suspect because the original 14th (current 9th) would not have used the creek as a meaningful hazard. 

The original 13th played down the driving range and then crossed back over to finish at the present 8th green.  In aerial photo, it appeared that the creek might have been a second shot hazard in the form of a creek running along the current boundary line between the driving range and the course.  It is, as I remember, a low-lying area.  A closer look shows that I am probably off-base about that.

Either way, the approach to the original 13th appears to be very cool.  The green at the current 8th is neat, and would have been even more interesting playing at a diagonal with a crossing hazard (being a creek or bunkering).  I would love to see an original aerial of the course to see how this hole played.

JNCL

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I may be mistaken about 13 and the location of Cobbs Creek.  However, the article does list the creek as a hazard for the original 12-14.  This is suspect because the original 14th (current 9th) would not have used the creek as a meaningful hazard. 

The original 13th played down the driving range and then crossed back over to finish at the present 8th green.  In aerial photo, it appeared that the creek might have been a second shot hazard in the form of a creek running along the current boundary line between the driving range and the course.  It is, as I remember, a low-lying area.  A closer look shows that I am probably off-base about that.

Either way, the approach to the original 13th appears to be very cool.  The green at the current 8th is neat, and would have been even more interesting playing at a diagonal with a crossing hazard (being a creek or bunkering).  I would love to see an original aerial of the course to see how this hole played.

JNCL

You are correct in that the 13th had the creek as a lateral hazard - but I speculate that the second shot was played more away from it. The original 14th hole no longer exists. It was a Par 3 that crossed the creek near the parking lot of the Driving Range today. The original 15th tee (today's 9th) was also further back - though I prefer the shorter hole today. One then walked through the valley where 17 currently plays from the current 12th green to the 18th tee.

[JNC Lyon]

Kyle,

I may be mistaken about 13 and the location of Cobbs Creek.  However, the article does list the creek as a hazard for the original 12-14.  This is suspect because the original 14th (current 9th) would not have used the creek as a meaningful hazard. 

The original 13th played down the driving range and then crossed back over to finish at the present 8th green.  In aerial photo, it appeared that the creek might have been a second shot hazard in the form of a creek running along the current boundary line between the driving range and the course.  It is, as I remember, a low-lying area.  A closer look shows that I am probably off-base about that.

Either way, the approach to the original 13th appears to be very cool.  The green at the current 8th is neat, and would have been even more interesting playing at a diagonal with a crossing hazard (being a creek or bunkering).  I would love to see an original aerial of the course to see how this hole played.

JNCL

You are correct in that the 13th had the creek as a lateral hazard - but I speculate that the second shot was played more away from it. The original 14th hole no longer exists. It was a Par 3 that crossed the creek near the parking lot of the Driving Range today. The original 15th tee (today's 9th) was also further back - though I prefer the shorter hole today. One then walked through the valley where 17 currently plays from the current 12th green to the 18th tee.

I'm guessing 14 played the opposite direction of the 15th (current 9th that plays up the hill).  The current 10th was the original 16th.  The current 11th was the original 17th.  The current 17th hole was not an original, even though it is one of two holes that benefited from a recent renovation.  The current 18th and the original 18th are one in the same.

The walk from the 17th to the 18th would have been even more brutal than today's walk, no?  Still, this is all very fascinating.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I may be mistaken about 13 and the location of Cobbs Creek.  However, the article does list the creek as a hazard for the original 12-14.  This is suspect because the original 14th (current 9th) would not have used the creek as a meaningful hazard. 

The original 13th played down the driving range and then crossed back over to finish at the present 8th green.  In aerial photo, it appeared that the creek might have been a second shot hazard in the form of a creek running along the current boundary line between the driving range and the course.  It is, as I remember, a low-lying area.  A closer look shows that I am probably off-base about that.

Either way, the approach to the original 13th appears to be very cool.  The green at the current 8th is neat, and would have been even more interesting playing at a diagonal with a crossing hazard (being a creek or bunkering).  I would love to see an original aerial of the course to see how this hole played.

JNCL

You are correct in that the 13th had the creek as a lateral hazard - but I speculate that the second shot was played more away from it. The original 14th hole no longer exists. It was a Par 3 that crossed the creek near the parking lot of the Driving Range today. The original 15th tee (today's 9th) was also further back - though I prefer the shorter hole today. One then walked through the valley where 17 currently plays from the current 12th green to the 18th tee.

I'm guessing 14 played the opposite direction of the 15th (current 9th that plays up the hill).  The current 10th was the original 16th.  The current 11th was the original 17th.  The current 17th hole was not an original, even though it is one of two holes that benefited from a recent renovation.  The current 18th and the original 18th are one in the same.

The walk from the 17th to the 18th would have been even more brutal than today's walk, no?  Still, this is all very fascinating.

JNC:

Try to dig up the old 1000+ response Cobbs thread. These discoveries are all outlined in there. I believe Joe B. is still attemping to peg down the exact date of the current 17th hole opening, but it was before the Publinks that was hosted at Cobbs. As such, the old 14th hole didn't last very long.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Joe,

Great work on finding this article and posting it.  As you know, we have long suspected that there was very little chance that Flynn would have been left out of this group given his role at Merion but this is the proof we needed.  We can now say that EVERY major Philadelphia School architect spent meaningful time onsite.  Just think of the names: Wilson, Flynn, G. Thomas, Crump, Ab Smith, and G. Klauder.  The minds of Pine Valley, Merion, Shinnecock and Riviera were all working collaboratively for the benefit of the public golfer on a single course.  Think of Doak, Kidd, Hanse and C&C walking a muni track together.  WOW.

[ChipOat]

The article states that Cobbs Creek is the "finest municipal course in the entire world".

The Old Course may not be the single greatest golf course on the planet (sorry, Tommy), but I have always thought it to be many notches above Cobbs Creek.  Presumably, that would have been my opinion in 1917, as well.

[Bill Hagel]

Joe:

Glad to see you are still doing the research.  I have not posted in over 18 months (long story) but have decided to reengage on the GCA.  Recalling our quest back in 2008 to unveil the secrets of the (current) 17th that was put into play just before the US National Publinks in 1928, I remember mentioning that the bunkering on that hole was very Flynn-esque and we all wondered if he played some role at Cobbs. Was it Flynn that designed the current 17th? That possibility just got stronger based on your find.

Great work.

   

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

Glad to see you are still doing the research.  I have not posted in over 18 months (long story) but have decided to reengage on the GCA.  Recalling our quest back in 2008 to unveil the secrets of the (current) 17th that was put into play just before the US National Publinks in 1928, I remember mentioning that the bunkering on that hole was very Flynn-esque and we all wondered if he played some role at Cobbs. Was it Flynn that designed the current 17th? That possibility just got stronger based on your find.

Great work.

Bill, finally just recently I found something talking about the new 17th at Cobb's.  I was only looking for about 2 years!

This article talks about how the hole came about in 1926.  At the same time 11 new holes were being built of what is part of Karakung.  I have many articles indicating Ab Smith was partially (mostly?) responsible for these holes, hence I'm betting Ab probably played a role in the 17th on Cobb's. 

Note the reason seemingly given for getting rid of the original 14th at Cobb's:  that the green lies in Delaware County.

[Joe Bausch]

I've also found an even earlier article mentioning Flynn at Cobb's.  Curiously this article from April 1915 (Evening Ledger) mentions some of the usual suspects, and Flynn, but not Wilson.

[Mike Cirba]

That's an awesome article, Joe.

This one comes at the end of construction, the day before the course opening;

[Mike Cirba]

Is it any wonder that attributing golf course design work from newspaper articles only can be so damn maddening and frustrating and contradictory at times?

Here, from a "hometown" account in the Boston Globe on August 1915 is an account of Flynn's work at Cobb's (and others).

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike:

  Many thanks for posting this.  The early part of Flynn's career and its evolution are very interesting. 

[Mike Cirba]

Rory,

Yes, it's really interesting to see how Flynn's career seems to have evolved into architecture rather quickly.   While we know the course at Cobb's Creek was routed by 1914, and perhaps initially as early as 1913, we also know that Flynn was given the shaping role wiith the greens, bunkers, and other features and perhaps more as the construction progressed in 1915.

Just as interesting to me is the fact that Flynn visited great courses to get ideas for his work.   Wonder where he got that idea from?