[Mike_Clayton]

Played the Monty course at Carlton House this week.
It is described as an inland links but it is a parkland course with few trees,wispy rough and very deep bunkers.
In no way is it a links because - for one reason -  there is barely a green where you can run the ball onto the green.

What was interesting was that Montgomerie wanted the bunkers to be 'penal'
What 'he' did was build - it is always dangerous to say 'every' but it looked like 'every' - every greenside bunker so deep that all you could see from the bunker was the top quarter of the pin - if you could see it at all.

My sense was that it could have been a fantastic course but to me it somehow missed a real opportunity to do something really significant for inland European golf.
The driving areas are pinched in with bunkers inside and outside of the holes - most turned one way or the other - making driving really pokey for average length hitters who were forced into the narrow spaces.The longer hitters meanwhile could smash it over everything.
There was so much space that there were seven or eight holes that were candidates for alternate route options yet not one was used.
Monty is a fan of Royal Melbourne and it is hard to avoid the conclusion that if the instruction had been build the playing characteristics of Royal Melbourne - width,space,simple strategies and difficult 'penal' bunker shots but with lips in some cases only a foot or two high - it could have been a brilliant course.
The routing is excellent and you have to really hit- but it is hard to come to any other conclusion that it is ultimately a course designed by a very straight hitting golf pro.

The greens were perfect - there have been a few courses I have played where the greens are perfect to putt i.e every single putt goes exactly where it is hit and it never deviates off that line bacause of an imperfection.Kingston Heath is another as were Fulford in York and Ibirakii near Tokyo.
Anyone else here played it??

[Robin_Hiseman]

The driving areas are pinched in with bunkers inside and outside of the holes - most turned one way or the other - making driving really pokey for average length hitters who were forced into the narrow spaces.The longer hitters meanwhile could smash it over everything.

Mike

What part do you think that tee selection had on this issue?  Which set were you off?  We have the same problem at the Casa Serena Open, where the Senior tour officials admit that the huge disparity in driving distances on the Senior Tour makes it a big problem for them with course set up.

[Mike_Clayton]

Robin,
We played one tee up on almost every hole - and in some ways it would have been easier for me as one who isn't that long, of we had played some of the holes futher back so the long hitters were going into the gaps. And there are a few blokes who can' hit it anywhere who the tour tries to protect. And it is surprising how far some of the guys hit - Sandy Lyle is one still bombs it miles.
I thought the problem/ issue was way more pronounced here than Casa Serena last year - which was setup well I thought.

It just looks like it was meant to be a much more difficult course than CS.

[Rory Connaughton]

I have played the O'Meara at Carton House but not the Monty. The O'Meara is a very entertaining parkland course with a lot of fun golf to be had especially the final stretch (around the cottage where Marianne Faithful was once shacked up).  The Monty course does look very penal.  Is it possible that this is because Carton House is the home of the GUI?  I know at least one Irish Open was played over the Monty.  Was it contemplated that it would be a regular venue for the tournament?

[Mike_Clayton]

Rory,

I am not sure about the Irish Open venue but they did play there - and by all accounts the rough was crazy thick.
Since they left Portmarnock in the late eighties they have not really had a permanent venue - it has gone to so many new courses seemingly looking for the publicity.

[Brian Stewart]

Rory,

I do not believe the Irish Open was intended to be held there permanently.  It was held there in 2005 and 2006 but moved to what was supposed to be a 3 year run at Adare Manor in 2007.  Adare pulled out after two years citing massive financial losses and the event was moved to Baltray.  This year it will be held at Killarney Golf & Fish club.  I'm not sure which course they are using but I can't imagine that it will generate much interest there. 

As for the Montgomerie Course at Carton House, I didn't find it to be particularly penal.  While it certainly isn't a links course it seems quite playable in most situations, even in heavy wind.  There are a couple of very good par 5's from memory (4 and 8 ) and a solid set of par 4's on the back.  The only hole I didn't really care for was 18 as I understand the prevailing wind is left to right and the fairway is also canted in the same direction toward a hazard on the tee shot.  That shot seemed a little too penal.

Edited to correct the smiley.

[Rory Connaughton]

Its really too bad that the Irish Open can't get one of the dates immediately preceding the Open with Portmarnock, Royal Dublin or Baltray as the venue (certainly there are other worthy venues but in terms of overall exposure, ticket sales etc., I assume proximity to Dublin is a given).  I suspect that if it was contested on the right date on a links it would draw a great field.

[Ally Mcintosh]

This year, The Irish Open will be played over the Killeen course at Killarney... It has been moved to a much better date in the calendar (beginning of August) so hopefully we will see a renewed interest from the pros... Obviously (as has been oft-stated) it would be good to have it preceding The Open at a links venue but that's reserved for The Scottish Open...

As for the Carton Monty, do you think there is a lot of Monty there, Mike?...

Your first sentence: "In no way is it a links because - for one reason -  there is barely a green where you can run the ball onto the green"... Do you feel that's because it doesn't run firm or because all the greens are raised?.... The same designer built a true links course in Ireland (Portmarnock Links) but there, many of the greens have been raised on to mini-plateaux, making it harder to play the ground game...

[Mike_Clayton]

Ally,

You can't really run the ball up becuase the greens are raised and it is soft in front. 1,2,5,7,10,,12,14,16 are examples of that and there is no way into the long par four,11th green because of the bunkers across the front.

Brian,

I suppose it depends on your definition of penal. To me when the fairways are narrow and bunkered in many cases on both sides with hazards that mostly you take a wedge and hack it forward and almost every greenside bunker shot is blind it is a long way toward being a penal course.Certainly there are an awful lot of penal hazards.
Penal hazards are vital elements of strategic golf but an abundance of them and it crosses the line.

I did think 4 was a particularly good hole and 8 too although it may have been better with an alternate fairway low and left of the bunkers on the left of the second shot.

[Tom_Doak]

We played one tee up on almost every hole - and in some ways it would have been easier for me as one who isn't that long, of we had played some of the holes futher back so the long hitters were going into the gaps. And there are a few blokes who can' hit it anywhere who the tour tries to protect.

This is just as true of the US PGA Tour as of the Senior Tour, and it is under-publicized.

Tour set-ups are based on the "average" to "good" length driver.  They always hedge against anything that might require a big carry, in case adverse conditions make things difficult.  As a result, they NEVER have a set-up where the long hitters have to think twice about most of the trouble off the tees ... it's just bombs away for them, while the rest of the guys have to be much more careful.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think its difficult to set any course up these days. If you go back 25 years everyone hit the ball within a range of 25 yards. This has doubled even on the main tours and there are even some extremes outside that.

I am more and more convinced its almost impossible to design a golf course that everyone from a top pro to aunty Mary can actually enjoy. Certainly if you introduce water carries and deep bunkers where only a quarter of the pin can be spied from a greenside bunker, poor Mary may have more fun in the kitchen!

[Al White]

I’ve played the Monty twice and been underwhelmed on both occasions.  I seemed to spend both days hacking out of bunkers after hitting shots which weren’t too far off target.  My impression was that it’s a course that’s just too difficult for the average length 6 h’cap player like me.

By contrast, the O’Meara is great fun – just forgiving enough, interesting greens and bunkering, and a lovely routing through some mature woodland.  It’s one of my favourite courses for a ‘day out’ with friends.

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