RTJ - A Disciple of Mackenzie?

[Neil_Crafter]

I came across this article about RTJ in the NY Sun in 1942. Interesting says that Jones would be designing airfields the most interesting is about his design philosophy and being a disciple of Mackenzie. He also says that bunker lined fairways do not interest him. What happened between then and Oakland Hills? Or was he just responding to the USGA's brief at Oakland Hills as discussed in the Joe Dey thread.

Interested in people's thoughts.

[BCrosby]

Neil -  

You gotta hand it to RTJ. To get this sort of publicity about his gca ideas in the darkest days of WWII is impressive.

Bob Jones hired RTJ to do Peachtree and make changes at ANGC on the strength of his belief that RTJ understood MacK's design philosophy. There is no way to know if Bob Jones ever read this article, but I recall RTJ saying similar things in golf magazines in the late 30's, usually also mentioning his partnership with Stanley Thompson, who actually knew MacK.

(Not to go off topic, but I've always thought the interesting question is not why Bob Jones hired RTJ in the late 40's, but why he never used RTJ again.)

Note that Herb Strong's Ponte Vedra and Flynn's Indian Creek are mentioned as "masterpieces" alongside NGLA, Lido and others. I am not familiar with Spring Hill.

Great find.

Bob

P.S. I've never understood why it was important that you couldn't see bunkers looking back from the green to the tee. Why is that supposed to be a virtue? Isn't it just a function of bunkers having lips? Some do, some don't, but that doesn't say much about their quality or the quality of the hole.

  

  

[Tom_Doak]

BCrosby:

Spring Mill is the local moniker for Philadelphia Country Club, where the U.S. Open had recently been played (1939).

Interesting that RTJ gives himself all the credit for Jasper Park here and never mentions Stanley Thompson.

[Robert Emmons]

Tom,

I was surprised by Jasper Park myself...RHE

[Neil_Crafter]

Yes Tom, I did notice that about Jasper. Presumably by 1942 when this article was written RTJ's partnership with Thompson was over.

Bob, certainly Mac knew Thompson, but it seems RTJ also met Mac while he (RTJ) was still at Cornell and went out to see Bayside Links with Mackenzie. he describes the meeting in the foreword to the Grant Books reprint of Golf Architecture.

I've never understood either that aspect of the bunkers disappearing looking from the green back to the tee. It is just a function of the lips closer to the green being higher than the lips closest to the tee as you say. On another note, I have never been enamoured of those photographs taken from the tee looking back that some golf photographers are wont to do, they seem pretty pointless to me.

[Tim Nugent]

it's one thing to talk-the-talk but another to walk-the-walk.  RTJ was first and foremost a great marketer of all things RTJ.  It doesn't surprise me he would "borrow" from an association,  as I've heard that he would slip slides of famous courses into his presentations, not saying they were his but not saying they weren't either.  But like many thing RTJ, you don't know howmuch is fact and how much is fiction.  When you generate your own publicity, you get to write your own history.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

What's wrong with using a picture of a course you didn't build in a presentation?

I have always done so, and thought I was being modest in doing so.  But, I never expected that anyone would think that Cruden Bay or St. Andrews were my own designs.  I guess it depends on context.

[Ronald Montesano]

NEWS FLASH:  Cruden Bay and St. Andrews Old embroiled in controversy.

Tom Doak admitted today that he designed neither course.  A search is underway to determine the actual architects and planners involved in their creation.  Doak has reportedly gone into hiding.

[Tom MacWood]

At Oakland Hills RTJ claimed he was simply relocating existing bunkers for the modern game. I think he did more than relocate bunkers, but OH was a fairly well bunkered course prior to RTJ. Stanley Thompson was not averse to well bunkered courses, so I think RTJ came by it honestly. I think the Depression had a big effect on the way a lot of golf architects thought, at least American architects, ironically it didn't seem to have much effect on Thompson.

In 1936 when Ohio State was looking for someone to complete their Mackenzie courses RTJ was recommended by both Herb Graffis and Bob Jones as someone familiar with the doctor's ideas, so even then there was kind of perceived connection. It is also interesting to note that Mackenzie's widow came to RTJ with his unpublished manuscripts (Spirit of St. Andrews) in hopes he could get it published.

[Tim Nugent]

Tom, probably context, time AND audience  I would like to believe that, with the abundance of public domain and published work, that today's students of the game are more versed in the subject matter. 60-70 yrs ago, maybe not so well travelled.

I'm not saying I've never shown pictures to clients when there was an example of a concept I was trying to get across.  However, I will give the location and architect (that way if they don't like it, they can say so freely and not have to worry about hurting my feelings).

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I oddly looked at Jones Sr as a closer to penal rather than strategic architect.