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Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
The next in the series is Old York Road.  Currently only 9 holes remains of this layout and it is currently known as The Abington Club.

What I find curious is, if this article is accurate, attribution of the "moat hole" to Tilly is not correct.  It was already in place by the original architect Jim Lang, the pro at the time at Huntingdon Valley.  Of course my good friend Phil Young will chime in here to correct me once again.  ;)

Also interesting is that Willie Park apparently was involved to some extent.  Enjoy!

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
The pro at Huntingdon Valley (I don't know if his name was Jim or John Lang, and maybe it was Laing) apparently won
50 bucks in the architecture contest as this April 24, 1910 Inky article describes:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

This is interesting on a number of levels.

The Tillinghast plans for the Moat Hole show the hole as a very short Par 4 and based on the drawing played from a tee somewhere near the present clubhouse. I've always wondered about this and figured the hole had either been modified when the club went back to 9 holes or was never built based on the diagram. *Edit* I see the Tillinghast Association lists it under Abington Club and as a renovation/addition.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 05:01:21 PM by Kyle Harris »

Mike_Cirba

Very interesting, as this island green is the earliest I know of outside of the original 10th at Baltusrol.

Who knew it was Jimmy Laing all along?

Certainly, they seemed to catch on quickly in the Philly area, with one's quickly appearing at the original Aronimink, at Cobb's Creek, and then at Galen Hall.

Phil_the_Author

Joe,

As you stated, "What I find curious is, if this article is accurate, attribution of the "moat hole" to Tilly is not correct.  It was already in place by the original architect Jim Lang, the pro at the time at Huntingdon Valley.  Of course my good friend Phil Young will chime in here to correct me once again..."

It is my GREAT [pleasure to let you know that for the first time in quite a while is that the conclusion you have drawn from what you read is actually PARTIALLY correct!   ;D It feels wonderful NOT to COMPLETELY correct you!

Seriously though, this is one of a number of points being brought out in Tilly Volume II as I becamse aware of it a while ago. Since you put it out, let me show you where else it has always been and, in fact, as far back as 1914 could be clearly seen that the ORIGINAl "Island Hole" was designed by another. 

In the December 1914 issue of The American Golfer there is a wonderful photograph of the island green. I will email you it so you can put it on the thread if you'de like. Ten months later, in the October 1915 issue, it is reported that yje Old Yorke Road Country Club course was to be remodelled "to meet the requirements of modern golf. Three entirely new holes will be added and the others will be considerably changed..." It consinued, saying, "Plans are being prepared by Mr. A.W. Tillinghast amd work will be commenced  in the fall..."

Ford's article, in the photo captian, states that, "The fifteenth, or lake hole, is the only one of the original nine that remains today as originally laid out..." This statement appears to be incorrect.

In 1917, Tilly published an advertising booklet titled, Planning a Golf Course (which can be viewed on the Tillinghast Association website) in which he included the plan for the Old York Island Hole. In his comments he states, "Originally the island green was open to a mashie-shot from the teeing-ground over the Alps..." The word "originally" clearly indicates that the direction that the green was played from was different BEFORE the alterations were done. On the drawing (I'm sending you that as well) the "Alps" are clearly shown directly to the right of the green and the teeing-ground referred to was from that direction. In fact, it seems to be implying that originally it was a one-shotter by referring to the "teeing-ground" in that manner, and as Kyle pointed out, Tilly turned it into a two-shotter from a different direction.

That the article is incorrect is clearly seen in the description that Ford writes of the hole. "The fifteenth is the longest hole on the course. Between tee and green 540 yards of fairway, with a boundary on the right and trees on the left, must be traversed. The green has two-levels and a pit at the left..." As can be somewhat seen in the photograph, the "alps" are to the right as Tilly described. I believe that what Ford meant was that the green was the only hole not changed from it's original laying out...

If this is so, then the description of the 15th as being of 540-yards, shows that there was ANOTHER redesign of the course AFTER 1917 when Tilly wrote the booklet and January of 1925 when Ford published this article.

So yes, Joe, someone else originally designed the GREEN, but TILLY redesigned the hole... and then someone else redesigned Tilly's work and reused the green once again...
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 08:25:25 PM by Philip Young »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Phil, doesn't the Ford article above say the island hole is the 14th, not the 15th?  Here is what
I read from the article:

Only one hole of the original nine holes – the fourteenth or island hole – remains today as first
laid out.


Clearly the caption is wrong Phil!  I'm beginning to wonder if you really read the article.  If you read the
article you would see that twice they mention the island hole is the 14th!

This is almost as bad as your suggestion of some schmuck for Far and Sure.   ;) ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

Phil,

Are we sure the Par 4 to the Moat Green was ever built? The hole, as it even exists today, is as described in the Ford article. Penn Pilot aerials show the hole as a par 3, and the hole as drawn by Tillinghast would have started in today's parking lot.

Also, the caption is wrong in the article.

Phil_the_Author

Joe,

You're correct... I didn't read the whole article. I figure if I'm wrong I have you there to correct me, though I am much closer with some old schmuck than others were when they claimed F&S was Tilly!  ;D

My only excuse for not reading it is one of time... very short on it tonight and simply put two & three together and got 6!

Kyle, my belief in the hole having been redone is because of what Tilly wrote. The word "Originally is quite specific in it's meaning and implication of a definite change. There certainly is reason to look into the question further...

Kyle Harris

Phil,

In order for that hole to have been built - the original (and still existing!) 18th green would have to have been moved. The earliest aerial I can find (1942) still has the hole as a Par 3 and the 18th green there as it is today. The Ford description is of a par 3, and the 18th hole is as described in the Ford article. So in 1942, the course is largely unchanged from the Ford description.

The Ford article states that the Moat hole was the only one kept from the original routing...

Phil_the_Author

Kyle,

Yes, the ARTICLE states that the 14th hole was the only hole not changed, but the CAPTION TO THE PHOTOGRAPH of the Island Hole also states that the 15th hole was the ONLY HOLE not changed.

Based solely on the entire piece one can't state which hole the phrase "only one of the original nine that remains today as originally laid out" applies to. Yes, it SEEMS more likely that it is the one-shotter rather than the long three-shotter, but then again the description of the "Original" tee location being being clearly from a different angle based upon BOTH Tilly's new hole design AND what appears to be the "Alps" showing in the photograph seem to disagree with that conclusion.

That is why more investigating is needed...

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Even in 1922 the 'island hole' was the 14th:


@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Phil_the_Author

For some reason, when I logged in this time the newspaper account came in much clearer. The "Alps" can be clearly seen directly in front of the green from the direction the photograph is taken. What I had thought to be the "Alps", the shadowy area to the right that I can now make out to be tree shadows, aren't. This would then be taken from the direction that is in line with the "original" teeing-ground that Tilly wrote about.

Based upon that I am in agreement that it appears that the hole was never changed. So how can we explain Tilly's writing in his booklet?

The booklet was released in 1917. In November of 1917, Tilly wrote in the American Golfer that, "Another club, busy in reconstruction, is the Old York Road Country Club. More than a year agao some changes were planned by Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, the golf architect, and these proved so satisfactory that new work has been laid out along more ambitious lines..."

Is the drawing of the proposed new design for the "Island Hole" found in the booklet from the first set of planned changes or second? This cannot be stated definitively, but it would appear to be one of the further and "more ambitious" changes that he wrote of. If this was the case, then his writing of the "original teeing-ground" in the manner that he did would seem to indicate that he expected the change to be an absolute certainty.

Why wasn't this, and maybe other changes, ever done? Most likely it may have been the result of the economy and sacrifices surrounding World War I.

Any thoughts on this speculation?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 12:12:15 AM by Philip Young »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
The J.E. Ford article mentioned that Wille Park did some work at the original Old York Road, but gave no details.  This June 30, 1920 article gives a better idea of the changes he directed.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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