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Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2010, 03:25:39 PM »

Michael

If you have something to say why not just come out and say it

Melvyn


I did.  I said your thread is dumb.  :P ::)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Patrick_Mucci

Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2010, 06:37:48 PM »
Melvyn,

There's a sign over the door as you exit the locker room at Southern Hills.

It says words to the effect:

"When the rules are broker at leisure, the game ceases to be golf"

Golf is a game of honor amongst competitors.

But, as to carts, I couldn't have played for about a year or more if I didn't have the use of a cart.
Why should I be denied playing because my body, through no fault of my own, couldn't meet the physical demands ?

noonan

Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2010, 07:04:53 PM »
1. Melvin needs to post some GCA question or be perma banned.
2. He needs to be approved for saint hood because he has done no wrong.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2010, 07:17:17 PM »
1. Melvin needs to post some GCA question or be perma banned.
2. He needs to be approved for saint hood because he has done no wrong.

If you have something to say, Jerry, just say it.  ;)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

TEPaul

Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2010, 07:52:05 PM »
"I am curious how many people play 100% by the rules of golf every single round they play. I am not really talking about mulligans or winter rules. I am talking, like I am climbing into a bunker and my club accidentally barely touches the sand. Or I am under a tree, and in my practice backswing, I knock of a droplet of water off a leaf. That sort of stuff, that does not have an any impactful effect or advantage on your next shot. I am meaning your casual games, not tounament rounds of any kind."


Sean Leary:

That's a good question even though we have had it before. The absolute KING of that kind of thread in my experience was Tom Huckaby.

But I can only give you my own answer and I will tell you I have been pretty unique, actually really unique in some ways in my approximately thirty year career in golf.

Once I really started to play at around 35 it only took me about two years to get good---tournament ready and at scratch. After that I played some recreational golf but not very much and it just got less as time went on. It was all pretty much just tournament golf and just practicing alone for the last 15-20 years of it and playing every year over forty tournaments.

But in match play both recreational which actually almost always had some small wager going or even in tournament match play I was very regular about using Dec 2-5/1 with my opponents unless I felt there was some gaming going on with them and then I would keep them right at the technical letter of the Rules of Golf.

But I was sort of fortunate because right around the time I started playing that much I actually memorized the entire Rules and Decisions books and so the Rules of Golf for no particularly good reason I can remember other than just getting interested in them and most all their little nuances became pretty much totally familiar to me and I came to admire them too and their unique principles so it just got to be like second nature to me to use them completely whenever playing golf. I think it all made me feel good about myself, I think it actually made me proud of myself that way and it's kind of odd, I guess, but kind of cool too how golf can give you stuff like that if you let it.

I've thought back recently on some of these things through my life and I know I got lucky in my life because I may never have figured out some of these things on my own with no help. My father gave me a lot and he did it in a way that was the opposite of a disciplinarian. He really knew his stuff with golf and he had the friends of great golf all around him too.

I think those guys knew that golf offered them a real microcosim of the ultimate stage of character expression and they respected the game and each other through it; they never seemed to try to abuse it, that I was ever aware of. And when someone would come their way who did it was very interesting how they handled it.

There was this saying painted above the blackboard in one of the rooms at St Marks School where I took history classes for years that said; "Character is what you are in the dark."

To me, these days, I think the game of golf in the framework of that saying is just about synonymous with "the dark" and that's so analogous to being just out there by yourself with your clubs and ball particularly when you know nobody's watching you but you.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 07:59:33 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2010, 08:44:24 PM »
Tom....absolutely one of your best...I have tears for reasons I don't think I understand but feel.

You are and need to be a measured and treasured archive of what's been golf's past and present.....thru your eyes and words.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Pallotta

Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2010, 09:14:57 PM »
And a very nice juxtoposition with the video that KBM just posted (thanks K) - of Ben Hogan hitting golf balls on the range, with some words from him that help you see how pleased -- no, that's the wrong word -- how at peace he was out there.

Me - I never felt so clearly and acutely the meaning of the phrase "if you cheat you're only cheating yourself" until I took up golf, at about the same age as Tommy P did. Alas, two years (and even ten years) later...

The perfect karma game, golf is -- what you give it is exactly what you get back.  Maybe the only place in the universe where one can experience that perfect symmetry.

No wonder Mr. Hogan was at peace out there.

 

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2010, 09:17:20 PM »
I haven't posted this in a while, but why are the USGA and R&A the owners of golf? Golf predates the Rules of Golf. What was the game they were playing prior to the Rules of Golf?

I can go out and play golf by any set of rules I want. If I was to play a game where I don't touch the ball between the tee and the green, who is the USGA, the R&A or anyone on this forum to say I am not playing golf because I'm not playing the USGA or R&A version of the game? If I decide I don't want to hole out on every hole because I'm just not in the mood, who gets to decide what game I'm playing?

IMHO, the USGA and R&A have moved far from the idea of golf. Golf at it's basic is to play the ball as it lies and the course as you found it. The ruling bodies have decided in the name of fairness to ignore those two principles of the game that stood the test of time for centuries before the existence of the R&A and USGA. 

I'll continue to play golf under my own rules and continue to not let the USGA and R&A define golf for me.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Let us drink a toast to all theories round, let us sing the praises of gowf.  Too Gowf!
 --Peter McNaughton (Golf in the Kingdom)


Patrick_Mucci

Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2010, 09:30:23 PM »
Dan,

While I often enjoy your unique perspective, how would you compete against other golfers if you use your rules and they use their own rules ?   CHAOS ?

A governing body, setting the rules is good for the game, especially considering the evolutionary history of the game and the rules.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2010, 10:18:06 PM »
Patrick_Mucci writes:
While I often enjoy your unique perspective, how would you compete against other golfers if you use your rules and they use their own rules ?   CHAOS ?

In a competition you have to all agree on rules. They don't have to be USGA or R&A rules, just ensure they are all playing the same rules. I've played the game in the past where if you touch your ball you lose the hole. It has nothing to do with the USGA or R&A but it works. I've played another game where if you can't finish the hole with the ball you started with you are DQed. The person who makes it to the farthest point without touching the ball wins -- if more than one, the one with the lowest score.

Two golfers playing a match that agree to give each other putts inside the leather are still playing golf, they just aren't playing golf as defined by the USGA and R&A rules of golf.

A governing body, setting the rules is good for the game, especially considering the evolutionary history of the game and the rules.

I agree. Using the USGA and R&A in a competition is much easier than working out the rules on the first tee. I've played by USGA and R&A rules more than a few times in my life. I'm just not willing to give such poor caretakers of the game the right to define golf for me.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play.
 --Charles Blair Macdonald
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 10:27:09 PM by Dan King »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2010, 10:43:22 PM »
Golf predates the Rules of Golf. What was the game they were playing prior to the Rules of Golf?

Dan,
I like the approach Melvyn took in a message to me, the gist of which was that while we shouldn't be lax in our respect for the rules  we probably don't need to be so rigid about them when we are playing an 'average' game with our friends. He said our mutual trust and respect for one another and the underlying principles of the game ought to be enough to see us through.

I have to agree with him.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2010, 11:23:26 PM »
Golf predates the Rules of Golf. What was the game they were playing prior to the Rules of Golf?

Dan,
I like the approach Melvyn took in a message to me, the gist of which was that while we shouldn't be lax in our respect for the rules  we probably don't need to be so rigid about them when we are playing an 'average' game with our friends. He said our mutual trust and respect for one another and the underlying principles of the game ought to be enough to see us through.

I have to agree with him.



At times I wish he would adopt that conciliatory tone a little more in his posts.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To Win at Any Costs or to have abandoned the Spirit of Golf…..
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2010, 02:19:42 PM »
Golf predates the Rules of Golf. What was the game they were playing prior to the Rules of Golf?

Dan,
I like the approach Melvyn took in a message to me, the gist of which was that while we shouldn't be lax in our respect for the rules  we probably don't need to be so rigid about them when we are playing an 'average' game with our friends. He said our mutual trust and respect for one another and the underlying principles of the game ought to be enough to see us through.

I have to agree with him.


Jim (and indirectly Melvyn),

It's somewhat humbling to see the 5 pages of discussions I participated in over on the other Brian Davis Topic boiled down so succinctly.

Mutual Trust / Respect / Underlying Principles - if ever the K.I.S.S Theory applied, that was it.


Dan,

I wish I'd thought of that sentence.  Great thought.

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