[Ally Mcintosh]

what say you?

[Andrew Summerell]

No

[Tom_Doak]

What do you mean by geometric design?

If you mean Macdonald/Raynor style rectangular greens and bunkers, several architects in the States have been building those the past 5-10 years.

If you mean the square bunkers and triangular mounds of 1898, you might see a course go that way again someday, but it will never be a trend.

If you mean the pyramidal mounds and beveled shapes that Bob Cupp built down in Hilton Head a few years ago, see the response just above.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think we will see a trend away from it since design will be mostly considering maintenance in the next decade.

I was just reading one of my maintenance books the other day, and it suggested a 55 ft minimum radius for green edges to accomodate riding mowers on the clean up pass.  IMHE, that is about right, but maybe a little exagerated.  As more courses skip hand mowing, broader shapes, not sharper ones, will be the order of the day.

And, let's face it, broader curves probably fit most sites better, although, there are certainly some exceptions.

[Mike Hendren]

I understood the question in the context of the Raynor/Macdonald style.

This poses an interesting contrast with Jim Urbina's feature interview and his focus on eliminating lines.  I'm not convinced the two must be mutually exclusive.   I love discoviring a long dead-straight edge on the side of a putting green for example.  A squared bunker edge is appealing as well.  

I'm probably on an island with the argument that there is really very little inherently natural about a golf course and that unnaturaly straight lines simply acknowledge and embrace that.  Contrast is one way to make a fashion statement - and it has yet to go out of style.

Mike

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Tom,

The question is open to interpretation but I'm pretty sure (hope) we won't see a trend towards 1890's square design or basic chocolate drops...

But I suppose there could be a possibility that architects start to embrace a more blatantly open form of penal design (e.g. top-shot cross bunkers) and mix it with the MacDonald / Raynor style of rectangles and steep, straight grass faces...

As you say, similar things are being done... But all things go through trends... Hopefully golf courses will go back to basics and become even more natural and we will end up with a plentitude of Askernish's...

But I'm just wondering what other design styles might become prevalent in say 20 years time... Ones that are cheap to maintain with a bit of luck...

Thinking out loud really Tom...

[Jason Topp]

I would describe River Hall in Fort Myers as a geometric design in the Raynor/Macdonald sense. 

[Jon Wiggett]

I think we will see a trend away from it since design will be mostly considering maintenance in the next decade.

I was just reading one of my maintenance books the other day, and it suggested a 55 ft minimum radius for green edges to accomodate riding mowers on the clean up pass.  IMHE, that is about right, but maybe a little exagerated.  As more courses skip hand mowing, broader shapes, not sharper ones, will be the order of the day.

And, let's face it, broader curves probably fit most sites better, although, there are certainly some exceptions.

Jeff,

I would suggest that as long as the greens are of medium size that hand mowing is not more exspensive than sit ons when you take the entire maintenance program into consideration over a say a decade. Maybe designing courses that can be cut by pulled gang mowers should be more the vogue if you want to reduce costs! Still, don't expect you will see many new courses being designed for them.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ally,

I'm probably one of the few who like geometric architecture.

St George's in Long Island has a good deal of it.

As I view the future of golf I see architecture that's easy to maintain as an emerging architectural form.

Costs to maintain have to be controlled and as someone stated, geometric architecture tends to be high maintainance, but, it sure is unique.

[Don_Mahaffey]

At least as it relates to bunkers and green shapes, I hope so.
Seems like Mr. Squiggle lives within every archie's CAD programs anymore and all those funky lines are more maintenance not less.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about the Cupp Course at Palmetto Hall in Hilton Head, SC? It was built in 1993.



The mounding has peaks, and the greens and hazards are rectangles of ellipses.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ally - a related question, if you don't mind, in the context of recent threads suggesting that it won't be 'business as usual' in the golf industry for years to come:

Do you think we'll see a trend towards greater or lesser uniformity in designs in the decade to come?

Do you think the assumed tighter budgets and less corporate/real estate-based ownership will lead to more people copying/emulating the work of particularly successful designers/golf courses?; or will those same circumstances instead lead to more people strating to take chances, or at least to less unformity as individual designers try simply to satisfy one/specific client or clientele?

Or will there be no noticeable difference -- not more nor less uniformity -- because of the economic conditions?

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve S,

I happen to like rectangular greens defended by deep rectangular bunkers right up against them.

I think it creates a "sharp" image of risk/reward.

I like the almost pass-fail nature of that configuration.

I'm not a fan of what you posted nor am I a fan of Des Muirhead's geometric work.

But, I do like fairways with geometric bunkers flanking and at 90 degrees of play between the fairway and the green and trench bunkers and rectangular bunkers immediately adjacent to rectangular greens

[Stuart Hallett]

Love it or hate it ?
Influenced by Vauban, the architecture does show conviction.

http://www.golf-dk.com/index.php?adr=galerie

[JC Jones]

I would describe River Hall in Fort Myers as a geometric design in the Raynor/Macdonald sense. 

I'm curious as to the why here.  Can you elaborate?

[Melvyn Morrow]

I believe that golf courses should and hopefully will reflect the country in which they are built, incorporating the natural lay of the land and climatic conditions. In other words courses should be synonymous with their birth place and not the land of origin of the game or designer.

I would love to see the more natural finish something in line with Askernish rather than a super manicured course that looks more like a snooker table than a golf course. The more natural and balanced courses will IMHO be more attractive, challenging, enjoyable and require less maintenance, thus hopefully reducing annual costs. I feel we should embrace some of the pre 1900 ideas, because we seem to be running out of ideas today. My biggest gripe is with the island Greens or Greens partly guarded by water hazards, as I feel the expanse of water is just not warranted. These Island Greens are acceptable to the top range of golfers but the majority of players (those I have spoken to) do not enjoy the experience knowing that if the ball goes in the water more than once on the same hole, their game is finished for the day. I believe the old rule of designing golf courses was based upon the average golfer, not the elite as the bulk of the revenue for most courses come from Mr Average.

So geometric whichever way that is defined should be incorporated however I still feel the course need to reflect the land natural contours as well as being suitable for the country of origin.

Snooker table courses are unnatural, expensive to build and maintain, water hazards are fine but not to the extent that they will constantly trap Mr Average – if that is the case utilise sand traps on the fairways in the line of path, at least the golfer can retreat via the sides or rear keeping his game alive. The ideas I believe is to challenge the golfer, not kill of his energy and game, surely that would persuade the golfer not to return to that course.

So, I feel we need to move forward, to encompass all ideas to produce the environmentally friendly course that reflects the local landscape and the country of its birth. Its simple really. if I travel I want to see and experience the countries own ambience, its OK staying in a Hilton standard Hotel, but I do not want to play on identical course worldwide. I might as well just stay at home and enjoy the various course we have her in GB&I.

I am not certain if I have picked up on Ally’s theme correctly but are we not getting to the point that the sterile clone courses are no longer that enjoyable.

Melvyn         

[TEPaul]

"Will geometric design ever make a comeback?"


I doubt it will ever make a serious comeback other than as the occasional novelty. However, in some instances geometric design has made a limited comeback for some time albeit it in a far more artistic and stylized manner than the old late 19th century early 20th century geometric style.

There should probably also be some distinctions made between the old fashioned styles sometimes referred to (back then and now) as "Dark Age," "Victorian," and "steeplehase" architecture.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

I played the Cupp Course at Palmetto Hall in the mid 90s, a few years after it opened. Back then, I didn't know about MacDonald, Raynor or Banks. All I knew that this course was different with its straight lines, sharp angles and unusual shapes.  I understand that the greens were renovated in 2005. I haven't been to Hilton Head in 10 years. I can't find too many pictures of the course. Here are 2 more:

[TEPaul]

"I'm not a fan of what you posted nor am I a fan of Des Muirhead's geometric work."


Pat:

Although I can certainly see why you would say it and others have as well, I don't think I would describe Desmond Muirhead's style of architecture, at least the style he got to with Stone Harbor as a good example, as geometric.

He did use some very sharp lines or definitions on many of his features when he got into that style but mostly those features did not use just traditional geometric lines and shapes but rather were done in highly symbolic shapes and forms such as "Jaw" bunkers, or a Norse sword or a Mermaid or even a bunker in the shape of New Jersey.

I would call that era of his highly symbolic or "symboism" and not necessarily just geometric. I should also point out that acid (LSD) and pot et al was much more the rage then than it is now!  


Did you know that somewhat like Picasso, Des Muirhead's style of architecture was quite traditional before he transitioned into the style that made him more famous?

[Tom MacWood]

Kelly Blake Moran was doing some interesting things with geometric features, I'm not sure if he still is or not. Pete Dye has been known to lean in that direction from time to time. I think there is a lot of potential there, and predict a comeback at some point.

[Pete_Pittock]

no no no no no no no no no
no                              no maybe
no                              no maybe
no                       [>    no
no                       [      no
no                              no
no no no no no no no no no
            maybe
            maybe

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