[Alex Miller]

The thread about Riviera's "donut" 6th hole got me to look at the 17th at Pebble in a different light...

Surely it's been a feature used more than the bunker in the middle of the green, but no where to the extent that 17 at Pebble. I'm referring of course to the 2 distinct landing areas in the 17th green complex. Is it a good design feature or is it just silly?

I've never played the course, but it always seemed to me that the amount of land that green complex takes up could be used to make a better green.

[Thomas McQuillan]

I have played Pebble Beach. Unfortunately its only been on the Tiger Woods series of video games so I can't really help you much here

[Alex Miller]

I have played Pebble Beach. Unfortunately its only been on the Tiger Woods series of video games so I can't really help you much here

You HAVE played but you can't help me?

I also have only watched it on T.V., seen photos, and played it in video games. I'll be there in person for the Open though!

[Garland Bayley]

If I remember my Anatomy of a Golf Course correctly, Tom talks about some unusual shaped greens including PB 17, and says there is a way to putt from one side to the other.

[Tim Gavrich]

Tobacco Road hole #15 has such a green as well.  I think it's a nice feature; makes for different looks from one day to the next.

[Jordan Wall]

Pebble's 17th works great.  It is one of a kind and is a great golf hole, and therefore it is a good design feature.

[Ian Andrew]

I never liked the idea of figure 8 greens.

I always thought it made those greens look terribly manufactured which such a man-made shape. I never liked Pebble and I can’t stand the 15th at Tobacco Road. I’m a fan of both courses and I find both examples to be low points “for me.”

Now Alex I see you mentioned holes in your thread...

If you want to talk about a bunker in the middle of the fairway and in front of the middle of the green – now we’re talking about something I really like. Of hand, the 11th at Metropolitan was one that plays well done by Mike Clayton. I'll try remember more, but that one flat out works for positional play.

[Tom_Doak]

I'll disagree with Ian, in that I don't like holes with a small bunker positioned at the front center of a green.  It's just too symmetrical of a set-up to me ... it looks too formal, and unnatural.

I have always wondered if the 17th at Pebble was much bigger originally.  You can SORT OF putt from the right side to the left, but there is enough back-to-front slope that you can only get to the front half of the left side, and only close to the front left edge if your tee shot was back right on the green.

The closest I can think of to a hole I really like with this kind of green is the 16th at Royal Melbourne (East).  It helps a lot that they cut the green right up to the lip of the front bunker, so you can try to putt right over the edge of it.

[Alex Miller]

I'll disagree with Ian, in that I don't like holes with a small bunker positioned at the front center of a green.  It's just too symmetrical of a set-up to me ... it looks too formal, and unnatural.

I have always wondered if the 17th at Pebble was much bigger originally.  You can SORT OF putt from the right side to the left, but there is enough back-to-front slope that you can only get to the front half of the left side, and only close to the front left edge if your tee shot was back right on the green.

The closest I can think of to a hole I really like with this kind of green is the 16th at Royal Melbourne (East).  It helps a lot that they cut the green right up to the lip of the front bunker, so you can try to putt right over the edge of it.

Funny, I was thinking today that if they did cut the green up to the bunker edge this hole becomes much more reasonable. It would bring alot of different putting routes into play, and even, IMO, bring the possibility of playing the ball away from the hole when going a cross the middle of the green in order to feed it off the slope.

In other words, if you were to try to putt the ball from the back of the left portion to the back of the right portion, the best way to do so would not be by playing the ball as close to the back bunker as possible, but rather feeding it off of the slope coming from the front bunker.

[Anthony Gray]

  Is it poor design if the only play is to chip off the green?

  Anthony

[Eric Smith]

I'll disagree with Ian, in that I don't like holes with a small bunker positioned at the front center of a green.  It's just too symmetrical of a set-up to me ... it looks too formal, and unnatural.

Tom:

An honest question here....are these designs so different from one another, particularly in regards to symmetry?

[Pete_Pittock]

I looked through Hotelling's book on Pebble Beach. It had Egan's notes on the changes. The new green was built on the site of the old green and he considered it a double green, with the "championship" green back left with the intervening ridge. He said the green was "particularly visible". Could this have been "partially visible" and changed over the years. A photo in a 1975 Dwayne Netland book on the Crosby showed the left section had about double the area of the front/right section.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I'll disagree with Ian, in that I don't like holes with a small bunker positioned at the front center of a green.  It's just too symmetrical of a set-up to me ... it looks too formal, and unnatural.

I tend to agree with Tom, but it's not so much the symmetry that bothers me, it's that they tend not to blend in well with the surroundings. Very often it looks as it they architect just decided, "listen, stick a bunker there!", and didn't consider how it would look. RTJ II has done this on 3 holes of the Castle Course at Bro Hof (Sweden). It's overkill in my opinion. Here's a picture of the 14th green.

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