[Geoffrey_Walsh]

My dad and I are planning a trip to Columbus, OH this year to play all of the top courses in the area.  We have made it a tradition to go away once a year, and we have tried to focus on areas that had more than one Top 100 course within a reasonable driving distance.

It is our hope to squeeze all of these into a Thursday - Sunday timeframe.

The Golf Club
Scioto
Muirfield Village
Double Eagle
The Scarlet Course (OSU)

Does any one have any advice on the order in which to play these clubs?  Keep in mind the locations and the difficulty.  I'd like to play 2 Friday, 2 Saturday and 1 Sunday (fly back to Philly in the afternoon).  In addition, please rate them in terms of architectural importance.

Finally, if there are architectural design features or quirks I should look for, please let me know.

Many thanks.

[jg7236]

Great choices, those are the best of the best.  You must have some friends in some high places to be getting on all five of those in one weekend.  Good luck to you guys, I originally grew up in Ohio and I have only played a few of your choices.

My order for playing the five would be:

Scarlet (long)
Scioto (Old Tradition)
The Golf Club (Old Tradition)
Muirfield Village (Magnificient)
Double Eagle (No tee markers, so it makes it interesting, you  decide wherever you want to tee it up)

Good luck,

John

[jg7236]

Also one other course that you guys should play is Wedgewood C.C., this course is fantastic, fast greens, great shape, and a  very challenging layout, each hole is different.

John

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Thanks for the info, John.  Interesting tidbit on Double Eagle, I don't think I've ever played a club without at least one set of tees...

[Todd Joseph]

Just a FYI  - The Golf Club and Muirfield Village are on opposite sides of town.   (not that Columbus is a huge metropolis).   Double Eagle is geographically located between the two so you may want to play it on one of the days you play Muirfield or The Golf Club.  I would agree with playing Scarlet and Scioto on the same day since they both are located in the Upper Arlington area. If you are looking for a replacement or a sixth course, I would recommend trying to get onto Longenberger.     I'd also recommend getting some dinner at Rigsby's after playing one day.  In my humble opinion its the finest dining in town.  

(ps. let me know if you need a 4th, I'm sure I'm free that weekend .)

[David Wigler]

Geoffrey,

The real can't miss in the area is The Golf Club.  It along with the Pete Dye Golf Club may be the best work he has ever done.  A quick note on Double Eagle, they do not allow shorts.  Given that, you probably want to play it early in the morning instead of in the afternoon heat.  Having played these courses many times, I would rate them:

Golf Club
Double Eagle
Muirfield
Sciota

The scarlet course is probably the weakest of Mackenzie's remaining work and as far as I know, no one has ever put it in a top 100 list.  I would play Columbus Country Club, Logenberger, or best yet, make a 90-minute drive and play NCR in Dayton, Canterbury in Cleveland, or one of my personal favorites, Inverness in Toledo.

[Lou Duran]

GW:

Just to toss my 2 cents worth here.  I couldn't disagree more with Mr. Wigler regarding OSU-Scarlet.  I have to wonder whether he is not an alumni from that school up north .  In the past it was rated in the top 100, and for a long time it was considered to be in the top 1-3 collegiate courses.  It has always suffered from over play and less than adequate conditioning.  It is holding the NCAA this year so I am sure that extra money will be poured into it.  I have not played Double Eagle, but IMHO, CCC is not in the same page with the other Columbus upper tier courses.  Scioto, Scarlet, Double Eagle, Muirfield, Golf Club would be the way that I would play them given your schedule.   Without regard to conditioning, my favorites would be Muirfield, Scarlet, Scioto, Golf Club.  I've played Inverness and NCR, and consider them to be in this class, so I would not spend the extra time getting there if time is a constraint.  I envy you that 1) you get to do this with your dad, and 2) that you have the connections to put it together.  Have a great trip!  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Thanks for the helpful information.

It sounds to me like the most logical schedule would be:

Friday: Scioto (am), Scarlet (pm)
Saturday: Double Eagle (am), Muirfield Village (pm)
Sunday: The Golf Club (am)

Would you all agree?

Todd - Thanks for the info on the club proximities (to each other) and the tip on Rigsby's.  We are always looking for some local knowledge regarding restaurants.

David - Thanks for the note on Double Eagle not allowing shorts.  I must say that I am definitely a traditionalist (I always wear khakis), and I will inform my Dad to pack accordingly.  That is the only club out of the five where we don't have a confirmed connection (we're working on it).  Any advice?

Lou - Dave is just bitter that OSU finally beat the Wolverines on the gridiron this year. I do feel extremely lucky to be able to do this with my dad.  It was the type of thing we talked about for years but never did.  Finally, I realized that if we didn't start, we would never see these places together.  

Last year we went to Hilton Head and played the following itinerary...

Friday: Kiawah-Ocean (am), Secession (pm)
Saturday: Harbour Town (am), Collerton River-Dye (pm)
Sunday: Belfair-East (am)

I rained nearly every day, but we had a tremendous time.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Which one's closer to the airport: Murfield or TGC?  That might determine which one we play on Sunday (we'll leave right from the club for the flight).

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Geoffrey
I'm with you, I thought that the Ohio State/worst MacKenzie golf course comment from a guy with M Go Blue on his post was ironic.

I think your schedule makes the most sense. The Golf Club is also the closest to the airport. You've definitley identified the best five, if I were to chose a sixth it would be without question - Champions a great Trent Jones public course which was formerly the private club Winding Hollow.

From architectual perspective Ohio State and Scioto are the two oldest designs and they share brilliant routings. Both take great advantage of the most interesting natural features of their perspective sites. They also share similar short comings, Scioto was completely overhualed by Dick Wilson in the 60's and reflects his bunkering style and love for water features - although they have tried to convert some of his bunkers into a more Ross-like look. The Scarlet suffers from the fact that MacKenzie died several years before the design was executed. The greens are very interesting thanks to the early involvement of Perry Maxwell, but the bunkers do not reflect the MacKenzie flair or strategic interest. No doubt because they were added by the superintendant and pro at a later date and they pretty much ignored the good Doctors plan. It also suffers from tree encroachment - but it is still a great layout and a very challenging one. I recommend you go up into the resturaunt after the round, MacKenzie's original sketch hangs over the fireplace and it is interesting to compare the planned and current courses.

The other three are all very strong modern designs. The Golf Club is my favorite Dye design and has a very old fashion feel.

[David Wigler]

Geoffrey,

Your itinerary looks great.  I am definitely a Michigan graduate but I do not think that colors my opinion of Scarlet (Although it might   ).  Tom MacWood summed up my opinions: it has very average bunkering and suffers from overplay, neglect, and tree encroachment.  I did not realize that Mackenzie died before he completed it but it would certainly explain a lot.  Do not get me wrong, I think that this course is a solid 5 - 5 1/2, it is just that the others you are playing are all 7's or better.  NCR and Canterbury are also 7+’s and within 90 minutes.  The Golf Club is on any short list I make of my ten favorite courses in the country.

As for a tip on Double Eagle, I cannot help.  I was a buddy of one of their assistant professionals four years ago.  I do not think it would be of much help now.  Find a way though.  The finish from 15 on is world class and it contains the best short par four that Weiskopf / Morrish ever built and to me that says a lot.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

David
How many MacKenzie courses have you played? A solid 5 or 5.5 is not too generous. I'm not sure what a 5 or 5.5. is, but it doesn't sound very good. All I know is that the NCAA is regularly held on the course and the cream normally rises to the top. How many NCAA championships have been held on the Michigan course/parking lot? As far routing is concerned and as a championship venue it can hold its head with the best of them. The condition has been pretty good - especially for a college course - the last three years and they also began removing some trees last year, hopefully that will continue. I take it you haven't played the course in a while. I personally don't get caught up in manicured conditions. If they implemented MacKenzie's bunkering scheme it would be world class and among the very best in Ohio.

Double Eagle has been overrated from the beginning and that may explain why it has been falling in the rankings. Some solid holes, some very goofy double fairway holes and some completed crontrived holes that do not seem to relate to the rest of the course. Tremendous conditions.

You're 7+ seems pretty high.  NCR is OK - the course next door Moraine is better. And Canterbury would be lucky to crack the top 5 in NE Ohio.

[Lou Duran]

Tom Mac.-

You state that Scarlet's bunkers lack MacKenzie's flair and strategic interest, and had the Dr.'s bunkering scheme been adopted, the course would be world class.  I am sure that I've visited every trap on the course during my several hundred rounds there, and I never thought that the bunkering was a weakness.  The shapes may be relatively symmetrical, and the edges somewhat straight or curvilinear, but the placement, angles, and varying depths are quite good.  I would like to see what Dr. MacKenzie had in mind, and/or your thoughts on how the bunkering could be improved on specific holes.   I do agree that like other courses of its vintage, it has a tree infringement problem.  I particularly disliked the spruces with limbs hanging all the way to the ground.  

[David Wigler]

Tom,

To answer your first question, I have played Crystal, Pasatiempo, and U of M.  In addition, I have seen Maxwell's work at Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes.  Scarlet cannot hold a candle to any of them.  As for the shot at U of M, I do not think it is a top 100 either but I think it is better than Scarlet.  5 - 5 1/2 was a reference to the Doak scale that we all seem to know.  Doak describes 5 as "Well above the average golf course...but don't spend another day away from home just to see it."  I think that this or slightly more is a very appropriate ranking.  If I drove to Columbus just to play Scarlet, I would be disappointed but if I was there anyway and played it, I would enjoy it.  I think the answer to your question about how many championships Michigan has held is one but I am not certain.  There is a lot of talk about a major renovation and then moving the Buick Open from Warwick to U of M but it is just talk.  I am amazed you do not like NCR and Canterbury.  Maybe we need a thread on those.  NCR is consistently ranked in the top 60 of Golfweek's top 100 and Canterbury falls in and out of the top 100.  I think that they are both accurately ranked.  Given Canterbury's history, I would think that someone whose expressed purpose was to play top 100's and famous courses would get far more out of a 90 minute drive to play one of them then Scarlet.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Lou
I've been in everyone of those bunkers too - many times. The bunkers are certainly not poorly placed to catch the errant shot, only in comparison to the original scheme they do not have the same kind of strategic interest. For example the 2nd green was oriented and bunkered so the rightside was the preferred angle of approach and there was a large central  bunker in the fairway that would have forced a decision off the tee. The third green was similar in bunkering and orientation but the there was fairway bunker on the rightside nearest the best approach. The 4th had a shortish left central fairway bunker that had to carried and two more farther down on the right, the green had a left side similar to the current right lobe, creating two distinct pin locations and strategies - the current left to right approach plus a right to left approach.  The 5th green was L-shaped - very similar to the 11th on the Grey. The 7th green was bunkered and oriented toward the right side of the fairway and the central fairway bunker was actually on the left half of the fairway. The 9th had central fairway bunker and green was oriented and bunkered to the left. The green was bunkered and oriented to the right. The 11th was similar the green was bunkered a little more and the there was more prominent bunker on the leftside of the fairway. The 14th had two fairway bunkers left and right and the green was bunkerless and surrounded by large mounds - very much like the 8th at ANGC. The 15th green was oriented to the left like the present green but there were so many trees on the leftside only a longish diagonal bunker. And there were several holes that had directional or 'give the player thrills' bunkers that would have added to the general interest of the course. The original plan was very interesting and of course the current course lacks the flashy MacKenzie bunkering that were his trademark.

David
I'm not here to defend Ohio State, I am aware of its short comings. But I have to question your comment that the Scarlet 'is probably the weakest of Mackenzie's remaining work', especially since you've only seen three of his courses. (That is if you consider Michigan a MacKenzie design, from the original plan it appears the course is a Maxwell - not a bad thing). MacKenize designed/redesigned quite a few courses - 20 odd in N.America alone - and I'm sure there might be one or two worse than the Scarlet - you've obviously never played the Grey. And to say the Scarlet doesn't compare with Pasatiempo, Crystal Downs, Prarie Dunes and Southern Hills, I think there are quite a few courses you could say that about - not exactly awful condemnation.

By the way Ohio State was among the top 100 in the US according to Golf, I believe in '91, '93 and '95. I didn't agree with that assessment, but obviously some thought the course was better than a 5 or 5.5. No doubt Weiskopf and Nicklaus were rating it highly and I suspect Dye, who is also fond of the course. It also benefits from the fact that most every great American golfer in the last forty years has competed on its fairways (this year will be the 10th NCAA championship since 1941).

I didn't say that I didn't like NCR or Canterbury, only that there were better courses nearby and if you are going to recommend someone drive 90 minutes that you would want to make sure it was the best course in the area. (Both are good courses, but not without their own short comings) As far as Michigan being a better course than Ohio State, thats fine, but I presonally would not trade the Scarlet and Grey for it. Although I must admit Michigan is the best course that I have ever parked my car on.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

It sounds to me like we need another thread on the best collegiate golf courses.  I am sure this topic has been raised before, no?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Geoffrey
Here is one man's opinion:

http://www.tlgolf.com/playaway/0901college.html

[David Wigler]

Tom,

Your comments are surprising.  I am beginning to think that you are a Buckeye and suffer from Michigan envy like all Buckeyes do .  "And to say the Scarlet doesn't compare with Pasatiempo, Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes and Southern Hills, I think there are quite a few courses you could say that about - not exactly awful condemnation."  I never intended to damn the Scarlet Course.  In fact, I like it and said so.  I agree that their are many other courses that would pale in comparison to those two.  

Have you played a Mackenzie course that is weaker?  If yes, which one?  Until someone tells me one, I will stick to that statement.  You take a shot at Michigan being the best course you have parked on but do not answer your own question.  I think that Michigan is a superior golf course.  Do you agree?  Have you played Michigan?  The fact that Scarlet has hosted the NCAA's is fairly irrelevant to if it is a good course.  Pine Valley and Cypress have never hosted a US Open and Hazeltine has.  Does that make Hazeltine the best of the three?  In fact, the NCAA's have been played on many average golf courses (And again, I am not calling Scarlet average) like 2001 at the Mission Inn Resort or the next one on the RTJ golf trail.

You now have had 5.5 explained to you.  Do you agree that if you came all the way to Columbus for the specific purpose of playing the Scarlet course, you would be disappointed?  If yes, then we agree.  I have never played Moraine, so I cannot comment.  If someone is coming to the area for the specific purpose of playing top 100's and courses with historical context, I cannot imagine Moraine more meeting that criterion than NCR.  

Obviously, we agree on what makes a great course since we both love The Golf Club.  I offended you somehow with what you perceived as a slight at Scarlet.  I am sorry but I stick to what I said.  If you look at a list of Sciota, Double Eagle, Muirfield, TGC, and Scarlet, Scarlet is a good golf course but a significant step down from the others.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Michigan envy, right. What would we possibly be envious of? The only area that you may have us on is arrogance and I think most Spartans might agree. Oh well - Jack Nicklaus, Jesse Owens, myself and the rest of us good Buckeyes will just have to be satisfied with our humble sports heritage.

What exactly about my comments surprise you?

Sharp Park and the Grey are both weaker than the Scarlet. Do you consider Michigan a MacKenzie course?

I have played Michigan and I like the course. It has very intimate feel, as compared to the Scarlet which is bigger, larger in scale. And it has some very interesting greens. I don't care for the Fielding Yost changes and I'm not crazy about Hill's work either. Surely there were other architects who would've been better able to capture the Maxwell style. Several of the bunkers and a few of the holes seem out of character - #18 comes to mind. Do you think the similar length of the par-4's (390 to 410) is a weakness?

When traveling I usually try to play or see several courses in that area and I try to do my homework before hand. In most cases I have some idea of the history of the course and how it has evolved over the years. So no, if I traveled to Columbus to play golf, I wouldn't not be disapointed in the Scarlet. For me there is always something to learn or pick up from visiting prominent course. In the case of the Scarlet it is the routing and the greens, and the the original plan hanging over the fireplace is almost worth trip alone. I'll grant you I've been surprised by some golf courses both positively and negatively, but never disapointed - it's all an educational experience.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Don't forget Joey Sindelar, John Cook, Clark Burroughs, Chris Perry, Ted Tryba, Ed Sneed, Chris Smith, and Tom Weiskopf.

[Dan Grossman]

I must say I have to agree with Mr. Wigler concerning Ohio State Scarlet.  Having grown up in Ohio and played many Junior tournaments at Scarlet, it just doesn't hold a candle to the other private courses in the Columbus Area.  Long and difficult does not necessarily make a good golf course.  

While OSU might be considered one of the best collegiate golf courses in the US, I am not sure how great of a complement that is.  Yale and Stanford are in a different league than everyone else.  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I don't disagree with Dan that the other high profile courses in Columbus are superior, and around the state for that matter. Columbus and Ohio is rich golfing territory. But I would still recommend my home course for those who enjoy studying golf architecture and those interested in the history of gca - there is much to be learned.

Dan
Where did you grow up and did you play the course in the HS tournament?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Finalized the itinerary for the Columbus trip, many thanks to all who contributed here.

Wed. (5/1): Drive from Philly to Pittsburgh
Thurs. (5/2): Fox Chapel (am), Oakmont (pm), drive to Columbus
Fri. (5/3): Double Eagle (am), Muirfield Village (pm)
Sat. (5/4): The Golf Club (am), Scarlet Course (pm)
Sun (5/5): Scioto (am), drive back to Philly

Hope to have some good reviews for the board when I get back.  Just added Fox Chapel, ann thoughts on this Raynor design?

[Brian_Belden]

I have to agree with both of you on the issue of courses. I agree with Tom that Scarlet is a better course that U of M. I played my collegiate career at both of these courses and Scarlet was more enjoyable and more difficult.

I also agree that there are better courses in the Cleveland area than Canterbury. While i enjoy Canterbury i think the the Country Club and Kirtland are probably much better courses.

I did have the pleasure of playing NCR and Moraine but it has been some time since i have played either course. So to make a judgement here i would want to play them again. I think that i would want to play all the courses mentioned in the Columbus area before driving to Dayton to play.

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