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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2009, 10:33:46 AM »

Pat, Tom Doak is typically modest about his work at Garden City; you may have the requisite experience to judge before-and-after.  What are your thoughts?  Where would you put Garden City in the great pantheon of Metropplitan area courses?  My impression, having not had the privilege to play there, is that it is in the top handful of the historic clubs that is most fun to play every day.


Chuck,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you alluded to GCGC being fun to play every day.

It's an easy walk and enjoyable, day in and day out.

While there are prevailing winds, the wind shifts make the course even more fun to play.

I would place GCGC in the top 10 in the Met area.

All too often courses are analyzed in the context of play by the PGA Tour Pros, but, for play by low, middle and high handicappers, who would want to play Bethpage Black every day ?

Winged Foot is a great course, but, every day ?

I prefer "sporty" to "championship" courses for play every day, although, Shinnecock might be the exception.

I'd like to think that I have a fighting chance to score reasonably well when I play a golf course, rather than the thought of just trying to survive the round.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 01:49:40 PM »
Niall Carlton,

Strong winds reduce the effective size of the fairway by 1/3 to 2/3, therefore, width is a must, unless you equate the game of the PGA and European Tour Pros with that of the average golfer.


Pat

Tour pros rarely play in wind, they have honed swings and can hit the ball a mile, of course I don't equate them with the average golfer.

You made the point yourself in your post to Brad. You soon learn to adapt your game which is something a club golfer, and one of any standard, can do. If you show up with a game suited to different conditions then don't ask the course management to get the JCB/flymo out just to accommodate you. Knuckle down and learn to keep the ball in play.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2009, 02:02:43 PM »

Niall

The problem with championship courses is they only host championships once in a blue moon yet the championship test conditions persist everyday regardless of weather.  I don't know how good a player you are, but there are plenty of second tier courses which are more than test for all but the best of players.  The more extreme conditions or terrain is, the more width is necessary.  There are far and few championship courses which pull of the double act of being a challenge for the best players and very playable for the club player. 

I have never, ever worried that a course was too easy, but I have seen more than a good amount of courses that are too difficult. 

Ciao




[/quote]

Sean

Championship courses get toughened up for when the big boys come to town and that is only to be expected. Of the championship courses near me I would say that all of them go back to what they were after the Open, Open Qualifier, Amateur or whatever has been and gone. On a day to day basis they are all playable but still a good test of golf. Just because the average golfer isn't going to get as close to par as he would on his home course is because of the test of golf not lack of width.

I'm a 10 handicap, was a 9 handicapper until the start of the season, so I am not one of those first class macho golfers who only want it tough. I too agree that often the second or indeed third tier courses can be more fun but thats usually for other reasons rather than playability or width. IMHO excessive width can make the game dull. We all need to have challenges otherwise we could just hit balls into an empty field.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2009, 02:04:10 PM »
Niall,

I only want to play Championship courses.  Unless it's 7200 yards, requires a 275 yard drive through a very narrow corridor, has plenty of trees, water and forced carries, and I don't have a chance in hell of shooting within 5 strokes of my handicap, I don't feel like a man 8)

Jud

Your clearly one of those first class macho golfers, and therefore badly in need of some therapy  ;D

Niall

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2009, 03:13:06 PM »
Patrick still writes the best golf stories on here.

If I could only play two courses in NY I would pick NGLA and GCGC. And if I could only play one, I just might go with GCGC as my pick. It looks that cool from all the pictures I have seen of it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2009, 06:38:57 PM »

Niall

The problem with championship courses is they only host championships once in a blue moon yet the championship test conditions persist everyday regardless of weather.  I don't know how good a player you are, but there are plenty of second tier courses which are more than test for all but the best of players.  The more extreme conditions or terrain is, the more width is necessary.  There are far and few championship courses which pull of the double act of being a challenge for the best players and very playable for the club player.  

I have never, ever worried that a course was too easy, but I have seen more than a good amount of courses that are too difficult.  

Ciao





Sean

Championship courses get toughened up for when the big boys come to town and that is only to be expected. Of the championship courses near me I would say that all of them go back to what they were after the Open, Open Qualifier, Amateur or whatever has been and gone. On a day to day basis they are all playable but still a good test of golf. Just because the average golfer isn't going to get as close to par as he would on his home course is because of the test of golf not lack of width.

I'm a 10 handicap, was a 9 handicapper until the start of the season, so I am not one of those first class macho golfers who only want it tough. I too agree that often the second or indeed third tier courses can be more fun but thats usually for other reasons rather than playability or width. IMHO excessive width can make the game dull. We all need to have challenges otherwise we could just hit balls into an empty field.

Niall
[/quote]

Niall

I am not talking about excessive width.  I am talking about necessary width if the game is to be enjoyed.  I am thinking of the last few proper championship courses I played and I thought Portrush, Muirfield and Birkdale were too narrow.  Turnberry is the only championship course I have seen in the past few years that offered enough space to play the game properly if the wind was up and boy was it up.  

To be fair, sometimes the rough or man-made architecture is not the culprit.  The large dunes we love to play golf through so much are double edged sword.  They create great interest and beauty, but they can also overly restrict the field of play if holes are routed down valley especially on predominately cross wind holes.  When the wind gets up to 30ish places like Hillside, Burnham and Aberdeen can become nasty places to play because 30 yard fairways can't accommodate 30mph cross winds.  The result is a game slowed down by hunting in rough up dune sides and if you are lucky enough to find the ball its a hack job with a horrific lie and stance - often times from within five yards of a narrow fairway.  

Additionally, a place like Birkdale has many dogleg holes on crosswind holes.  If the wind gets up these shots become stupid.    

I am not asking for easy golf.  I am asking for the architecture to properly take into account the weather conditions that can occur.  Yes, this means that on calm days the course is relatively easy, but there isn't a course I mentioned that I worry about guys tearing it up no matter if there is no wind.  Of course, I never worry about that anyway.  I am more concerned about the balance of challenge, fun, variety and speed of play.  IMO, nearly all championship courses fail to obtain this balance.  This is why when I come across a championship course which properly caters to all golfers in this manner that I am terribly impressed - they are a very rare breed.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2009, 09:58:54 PM »

Niall Carlton,

Strong winds reduce the effective size of the fairway by 1/3 to 2/3, therefore, width is a must, unless you equate the game of the PGA and European Tour Pros with that of the average golfer.

Pat

Tour pros rarely play in wind, they have honed swings and can hit the ball a mile, of course I don't equate them with the average golfer.

Niall, Tour Pros have to play on the dates of the tournament, they don't get a chance to come back another day.
Shinnecock, on several occassions, presented strong winds and I'd imagine that the links courses of the UK present similarly.


You made the point yourself in your post to Brad. You soon learn to adapt your game which is something a club golfer, and one of any standard, can do. If you show up with a game suited to different conditions then don't ask the course management to get the JCB/flymo out just to accommodate you. Knuckle down and learn to keep the ball in play.

I'm a fairly accurate driver of the golf ball, and know how to keep the ball low and fairly well controlled, but, strong winds effectively reduce fairway width.  If the rough is benign, it's not a problem, but, when the rough is Garden Cityesque, it's brutal.


Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2009, 10:28:13 AM »
Somewhat out of the topic....but anyday at GCGC is a treat.....

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2009, 09:06:13 PM »
Somewhat out of the topic....but anyday at GCGC is a treat.....

MWP,

Agreed, but, I think the wide fairways make it easier for the golfer when the wind is up.

Narrow fairways, with that difficult rough, would overwhelm most golfers, but, with generous fairways, the golfer can develop a comfort factor, even when it's windy.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part II, The windy day at GCGC
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2009, 11:10:36 AM »
Are you saying that GCGC has narrow fairways ;) ?