The 2009 Top 20 list is stronger than the 1997 list (Golf Digest top 100)

[Dean Sivara]

Six of the top 20 courses have changed when comparing the top 20 courses in 1997 to the latest list in 2009 , as presented by Golf Digest Magazine (America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses).  I suggest that the 2009 top 20 list is a stronger set of courses, offering more diversity and range of course types.  I have been fortunate enough to play the Top 100 courses listed on the 1997 list and have recently written a book detailing my passionate pursuit (which took over 20 years to complete).  After writing the book I have decided to donate the proceeds to the First Tee Program, which introduces the virtues of golf to under-privledged kids.  Here is a link to my book on Amazon.com, please order a copy and help the kids.

https://www.createspace.com/3389758

Now back to the debate.  Fourteen courses have stayed on the list from 1997 (Pine Valley, Augusta National, Shinnecock Hills, Cypress Point, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, Merion, Winged Foot West, Seminole, National Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Wade Hampton, The Country Club and Medinah).  Six have left the top 20 (Oakland Hills, Pinehurst #2, Olympic Club, Prairie Dunes, Shadow Creek and San Francisco GC)  The six new entries are (Fishers Island, Oak Hill, Chicago GC, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and Muirfield Village).

Fishers should have been on the 1997 list, but they did not allow enough raters to play the course to get rated at that time.  Sand Hills is a magnificent Crenshaw/Coores course that some have tried to copy, but it still stands out as incredibaly unique and fun to play.  Pacific Dunes is beautifully routed and challenging, while the Chicago GC is a memorable throw-back to a more civilized time.  Muirfield is my favorite Nicklaus course with many risk/reward holes.  Oak Hill is the one that surprises me a bit, but is a stern test.

The six that left the top 20 are a combination of US Open courses and gems in their own right.  Oakland Hills, Pinehurst #2 and the Olympic Club are all tough golf courses that factor high on the "resistence to scoring" gauge and less on the "memorability" gauge.  Prairie Dunes and the SFGC are classic courses that fall in and out of the top 20 regularly and Shadow Creek is a purely man-made course that is fun, but I can't remember all 18 holes (after playing it twice).

Thus, the 2009 list is more versatile, rewarding well rounded designs with memorable layouts, versus the 1997 list which is heavier with tough courses that hold national championships. 

What do you think?

[Adam Clayman]

MEDINAH?

Poor ol' digest.

What a pity.

[David_Elvins]

What do you think?

I think plugging your book in your very first post may be a faux pas.   But I could be wrong.  

A Golfers Quest, A Journey to Play America's Top 100 Golf Courses, describes a passionate 20-year journey to play the top courses, as designated by Golf Digest Magazine. Dean Sivara, a High Tech Executive shares his thoughts, perspectives and experiences while playing golf on the most sacred golfing venues in America. Dean is not only a good golfer (3-handicap), but is also a student of the game, with a love for golf course architecture. He not only describes his experiences at over 50 of the most exclusive courses in America, but more importantly he provides a helpful checklist of ways to gain access to the most private venues, including Augusta National, Merion & Shinnecock Hills. He also adds interesting pictures and shares the actual scorecards he used at each of the venues. This is an interesting and compelling recap of Dean's remarkable journey to accomplish a rare feat (only a handful of golfers have completed a Top 100 list, according to Golf Digest).

But none the less, congratulations.   Any book is a fine achievement.  I would be interested in some more insight on how you put the book together.  

Did you keep notes for 20 years or go back to revisit courses when you decided to write the book?

What was the reasoning behind including the actual scorecards that you used? I haven't seen that much in other books.

Are you concerned that sharing tips on how to access exclusive clubs such as Augusta National and Shinecock Hills may hamper your ability to play these courses in future?

[Gene Greco]

David:


    ALL proceeds from Dean's book go to charity.

I also believe Dean has Ran's blessing in this endeavor.


        Gene     

[David Stamm]

https://www.createspace.com/3389758

Now back to the debate.  Fourteen courses have stayed on the list from 1997 (Pine Valley, Augusta National, Shinnecock Hills, Cypress Point, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, Merion, Winged Foot West, Seminole, National Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Wade Hampton, The Country Club and Medinah).  Six have left the top 20 (Oakland Hills, Pinehurst #2, Olympic Club, Prairie Dunes, Shadow Creek and San Francisco GC)  The six new entries are (Fishers Island, Oak Hill, Chicago GC, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and Muirfield Village).

 

Will anybody or everybody agree that Prairie Dunes or SFGC deserves to be there over Muirfield Village?

[David_Elvins]

Thanks Gene,  It's always good to find out about new books so it doesn't bother me, I just thought I would get it out there early as it was bound to come up.  I didn't even know that golf books made money which shows how much I know.  

[Morgan Clawson]

Dean,

One of my friends also accomplished your great achievement.  Here's a link to his book:

<<http://www.golfersdreambook.com/golfersdream/about_the_author.cfm>>

[Chip Gaskins]

Will anybody or everybody agree that Prairie Dunes or SFGC deserves to be there over Muirfield Village?
[/quote]

From what I see on TV I find it extremely hard to believe that Murifield Village is better than Prairie Dune or SFGC, but then again few courses are...

Wade Hampton, Top 20?  Really?

[Andy Troeger]

https://www.createspace.com/3389758

Now back to the debate.  Fourteen courses have stayed on the list from 1997 (Pine Valley, Augusta National, Shinnecock Hills, Cypress Point, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, Merion, Winged Foot West, Seminole, National Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Wade Hampton, The Country Club and Medinah).  Six have left the top 20 (Oakland Hills, Pinehurst #2, Olympic Club, Prairie Dunes, Shadow Creek and San Francisco GC)  The six new entries are (Fishers Island, Oak Hill, Chicago GC, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and Muirfield Village).

 

Will anybody or everybody agree that Prairie Dunes or SFGC deserves to be there over Muirfield Village?

Have you played Muirfield Village? If its not top 20 its darn close IMO.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

https://www.createspace.com/3389758

Now back to the debate.  Fourteen courses have stayed on the list from 1997 (Pine Valley, Augusta National, Shinnecock Hills, Cypress Point, Oakmont, Pebble Beach, Merion, Winged Foot West, Seminole, National Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Wade Hampton, The Country Club and Medinah).  Six have left the top 20 (Oakland Hills, Pinehurst #2, Olympic Club, Prairie Dunes, Shadow Creek and San Francisco GC)  The six new entries are (Fishers Island, Oak Hill, Chicago GC, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and Muirfield Village).

 

Will anybody or everybody agree that Prairie Dunes or SFGC deserves to be there over Muirfield Village?

Have you played Muirfield Village? If its not top 20 its darn close IMO.

I'd take Prairie Dunes or SFGC anyday.

[Ben Sims]

Let's be somewhat objective about it.  Feel free to disagree with my method or ranking.  We'll compare the six that got kicked off for the six that are new.

Old List         vs.          New List                Winner

Oakland Hills                          Fishers Island                   New
Pinehurst #2                          Oak Hill                           Old
Olympic Club                         Chicago GC                      Push
Prairie Dunes                          Sand Hills                        New
Shadow Creek                        Pac Dunes                        New
SFGC                                    Muirfield Vill.                    Old


So I have the list at  3-2 win for the new list.  That assumes that Olympic vs. Chicago is truly even--which I would give the nod to Chicago by a hair.  Thoughts?

[astavrides]

Let's be somewhat objective about it.  Feel free to disagree with my method or ranking.  We'll compare the six that got kicked off for the six that are new.

Old List         vs.          New List                Winner

Oakland Hills                          Fishers Island                   New
Pinehurst #2                          Oak Hill                           Old
Olympic Club                         Chicago GC                      Push
Prairie Dunes                          Sand Hills                        New
Shadow Creek                        Pac Dunes                        New
SFGC                                    Muirfield Vill.                    Old


So I have the list at  3-2 win for the new list.  That assumes that Olympic vs. Chicago is truly even--which I would give the nod to Chicago by a hair.  Thoughts?

If the pairings were different, the results also may have been.

[Jim Nugent]

Let's be somewhat objective about it.  Feel free to disagree with my method or ranking.  We'll compare the six that got kicked off for the six that are new.

Old List         vs.          New List                Winner

Oakland Hills                          Fishers Island                   New
Pinehurst #2                          Oak Hill                           Old
Olympic Club                         Chicago GC                      Push
Prairie Dunes                          Sand Hills                        New
Shadow Creek                        Pac Dunes                        New
SFGC                                    Muirfield Vill.                    Old


So I have the list at  3-2 win for the new list.  That assumes that Olympic vs. Chicago is truly even--which I would give the nod to Chicago by a hair.  Thoughts?

If the pairings were different, the results also may have been.

An obvious and true point, and the fatal (?) problem with the GM and GW rankings. 

[Ben Sims]

Asta and Jim,

It likely comes down to a list of variables that I neither care to expound upon nor have the numbers to back up.  That's why a top to bottom assessment--while admittedly flawed--is an acceptable way to look at the difference in the two lists.  I still think the new list would fair well in just about any matchup scenario.  In the end it's a subjective ranking by a publication that prides itself on the components that make its rankings unique from the other two main publications.

Personally I'm happy to see Pac Dunes, Sand Hills, and Chicago GC in the top 20.  But the omission of SFGC in the top 20 is--in my mind--glaring.  As is the addition of Muirfield Village to the top 20.

[jim_lewis]

There will never be a day when Wade Hampton is better than Pinehurst #2 or Prairie Dunes.

[Chris_Clouser]

Between the two lists I have played 5 courses.  I would rank them in the following order.

Crystal Downs
Prairie Dunes
Oakland Hills
Muirfield Village
Medinah (a distant fifth)

I would argue Medinah shouldn't be on either list and be replaced by Prairie Dunes.  I could see why Muirfield Village could be there, but I personally like Oakland Hills better. 

[Jim Franklin]

Medinah fits the Golf Digest criteria perfectly. While it is not my favorite Chicago course (Chicago GC gets the nod) it scored very well. Muirfield Village scored well also. I would take SFGC, Prairie Dunes any day as well, but this is Golf Digest's list, not GCA's list. I loved Wade Hampton and happy it was included.

[Jeff Goldman]

Is this the list that had Chicago Golf Club ranked ahead of NGLA?  I love CGC, but..........jeez.

[Jim Franklin]

Is this the list that had Chicago Golf Club ranked ahead of NGLA?  I love CGC, but..........jeez.

I love CGC too, but not as much as NGLA. I was shocked NGLA dropped from the top 10.

[G Jones]

Is this the list that had Chicago Golf Club ranked ahead of NGLA?  I love CGC, but..........jeez.

Exactly what I was thinking... Chicago is great and I really love the place, but NGLA is Chicago with better topography, better views, more unique and memorable holes and more style. Hard to argue with that.

[Mike Sweeney]

Welcome Dean. It's about time that  you are on here.

[Dean Sivara]

Mike Sweeney, thanks for the welcome. 
A neat forum of golf architecture buffs

Looks like it is all over but the crying at the PGA this week --- Tiger has a big lead with 36 holes left

[jkinney]

Is this the list that had Chicago Golf Club ranked ahead of NGLA?  I love CGC, but..........jeez.

I love CGC too, but not as much as NGLA. I was shocked NGLA dropped from the top 10.

NGLA dropped out of the top 10 because its conditioning rating slipped badly.This was due largely to having shaved the course down in June for the singles tourney (a practice that has now been stopped), which left the course vulnerable to hot summer weather. Conditioning is now back to its normal pristine state.