Does the land elevate the golf course? Or does the golf course elevate the land?

[Mike_Young]

TomD,

I want a middling piece of land AND a middling architect.  Why, you ask?  1) So I can be really sleazy and cheap in the development and profit at others expense. 2) So I can impose my will and ego on the architect more easily 3) Because I'm a rich guys who thinks because he has money and a 15 hdcp. know something about GCA  4)  I can take credit for the press that my PR people create and last but not least so that 4) I can blame the middling architect when it ultimately fails...   

Just pick one....the woods are full of them from the last 20 years...and some really good deals....

[Adam Clayman]

Jud. From your description of PB I assume you identify great courses by how many great holes it has? Simply checking off the pluses for good to great and marking minuses for the holes that don't stack up? How many holes can stack up against the best holes at PB? What was your impression of Merion?

[Tom_Doak]

Jud:

That sounds like the model in China, or at least up until very recently.

[Jud_T]

Adam, I have yet to play Merion, hoping to sneak out after PV next spring, and I will be surprised if its not right up my alley.  As for pebble, I'm done knocking it here. Its akin to saying god doesn't exist.  And I admit that having played it only once I can't have complete conviction in my opinion.  But is saying that maybe it should be rated in the top 20 in the world as opposed to top 5 really heresy?  Apparently. I just think the wkole course should hang together, not just be an excercise in "wait till we get to the top of the hill on 6!"

[JNC Lyon]

How many architects would have built the eighth hole at Pebble exactly as it is today?  Not very many, I think.  Most would likely have put a tee at the edge of the precipice and played further down the coast.

But I have to say I don't understand the framing of the question.  Is the question:  Would you rather have a great piece of land and a middling architect, or a middling piece of land and a great architect?  Because that's a silly question.  Anybody that had a great piece of land and only hired a middling architect would be out of his mind.

It seems many people are confused by my original question, which is, of course, my fault.  My basic question is: can you judge a golf course and its architecture independently from the land it sits on?

To me, the concept that a course would be worse if it were "stripped of its surroundings" does not make sense.  A routing in a setting such as Pebble Beach or Fishers Island is going to center on the views and cliff top holes.

Mr. Doak,

Just out of curiousity, how would you have built the Eighth at Pebble Beach differently today?.  I extend the question to any other architects out there.