Why the hold up on P3's that follow P5's?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Is this in fact the case, as I have read somewhere?

Certainly anecdotal evidence from my home course (beach) is that the longest hold up is on the holes that follow a P5. (7&12)

Is this in fact true? And if it is - what is it about the P5/P3 connection that causes this issue. I am sure there are plenty of examples where this does not happen, are they the exceptions? The shorter the P3, the less it is an issue??

Routing the golf course - should GCA's give this issue a lot of attention in the design process?

[Ulrich Mayring]

The general understanding seems to be that long and/or difficult par 3s cause the most holdups. Is that perhaps the case for the two par 3s you mention?

I can't imagine what a par 5 connection would be, but perhaps those two holes have relatively easy approaches and green complexes, so players tend to finish those holes quickly.

Ulrich

[AJ_Foote]

Brett,

Not sure I have any concrete evidence, but as for your course:

No 6 is really a forced layup (unless you have the stones to hit driver down the little chute, which I don't), so groups will be playing down close to the green as the group in front putts out.

12 should be different as it is very reachable, except that few average players will be in a position to do so - so same as above.

And I think this happens on most courses.

Your theory sounds good to me - because the group behind gets close to the green while the group in front putts out - and par threes then take longer to clear as the group has to tee off and putt out - not just hit and move on as on a par four or five.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Paul Gray]

The general understanding seems to be that long and/or difficult par 3s cause the most holdups. Is that perhaps the case for the two par 3s you mention?

I can't imagine what a par 5 connection would be, but perhaps those two holes have relatively easy approaches and green complexes, so players tend to finish those holes quickly.

Ulrich

Exactly. For the typical golfer it's the third shot, rather than the second shot, on a par 5 which is the shot to the green. Frequently that shot will be less than, say, 100 yards so the golfer is through that stretch quickly whilst those in front are just getting to grips with a long one shotter.

[Brett_Morrissy]

The general understanding seems to be that long and/or difficult par 3s cause the most holdups. Is that perhaps the case for the two par 3s you mention?

I can't imagine what a par 5 connection would be, but perhaps those two holes have relatively easy approaches and green complexes, so players tend to finish those holes quickly.

Ulrich

Ulrich, they are both very fine mid + irons! playing around 145-160m 160-175yds.  We do have three  longer p3s across the 36, where we get a queue, mostly because they are very difficult, OR or the third one again follows a p5.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Brett,

Not sure I have any concrete evidence, but as for your course:

No 6 is really a forced layup (unless you have the stones to hit driver down the little chute, which I don't), so groups will be playing down close to the green as the group in front putts out.

12 should be different as it is very reachable, except that few average players will be in a position to do so - so same as above.

And I think this happens on most courses.

Your theory sounds good to me - because the group behind gets close to the green while the gourd in front putts out - and par threes then take longer to clear as the group has to tee off and putt out - not just hit and move on as on a par four or five.

Cheers,

Andrew

Sorry about multiple posts. Can't seem to get all quotes in same post.

Andrew,
Thanks and agree.6 is forced, I've only taken it on a couple of times, big hitters can though, with the right line, but generally the risk is too great.
We should have a hit one day.
Brett

[Brett_Morrissy]

And Paul and Ulrich, (tried to insert quotes!)

The short, close to the green approach allowing players to get onto green and putt out gets them to the next tee quickly, so not P5's, but short fours as well! Which explains the 15th on our Creek also.

Interesting... So can we deduce from this that the ideal hole proceeding a med to long P3, is a solid mid length P4....or another P3!!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is this in fact the case, as I have read somewhere?

NO

Certainly anecdotal evidence from my home course (beach) is that the longest hold up is on the holes that follow a P5. (7&12)

Is this in fact true?

NO

And if it is - what is it about the P5/P3 connection that causes this issue. I am sure there are plenty of examples where this does not happen, are they the exceptions? The shorter the P3, the less it is an issue??

Routing the golf course - should GCA's give this issue a lot of attention in the design process?

NO

[Kevin Lynch]

Despite Mr. Mucci's papal-like declaration of reality, I would agree that there is a connection, for the reasons stated above. Of course it all depends on whether the previous P5  (or short 4) is reachable or not.  However, you'd need the P5 to be unreachable by all members of the following group, and there's always at least one guy who can (or thinks he can) reach in 2.  This usually provides ample cushion for the group ahead to clear.  in most cases, I find that the reachable P5s back up on the tees, and the next hole ends providing some space.

[Tom_Doak]

The general understanding seems to be that long and/or difficult par 3s cause the most holdups. Is that perhaps the case for the two par 3s you mention?

I can't imagine what a par 5 connection would be, but perhaps those two holes have relatively easy approaches and green complexes, so players tend to finish those holes quickly.

Ulrich

Exactly. For the typical golfer it's the third shot, rather than the second shot, on a par 5 which is the shot to the green. Frequently that shot will be less than, say, 100 yards so the golfer is through that stretch quickly whilst those in front are just getting to grips with a long one shotter.

I think this is the correct explanation.

The slowness of par-3 holes (in general) is also the reason that the best or only place it works out to have a tee hit over the previous green is after a par-3 hole, because you don't have to worry that the golfers behind you will come up on the green right after you've left it.  In contrast, hitting over the previous green TO a par-3 where you might have to wait, will generally not work.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Although, I suspect, you would have to worry that the golfers behind you will miss the green and hit you on the next tee!

Ulrich

[Thomas Dai]

Sometimes a par-3 will be designated a 'play through hole', ie the group on the green stand aside while the group behind tee-off and then putt out while the other group walk up. I imagine this would work reasonably well at a private members club where almost all the players know the procedure to follow, can't see it working too well at a mini-pay-n-play though.
ATB

[Patrick_Mucci]

Despite Mr. Mucci's papal-like declaration of reality, I would agree that there is a connection, for the reasons stated above.

Of course it all depends on whether the previous P5  (or short 4) is reachable or not.  However, you'd need the P5 to be unreachable by all members of the following group, and there's always at least one guy who can (or thinks he can) reach in 2.  

This usually provides ample cushion for the group ahead to clear.  

in most cases, I find that the reachable P5s back up on the tees, and the next hole ends providing some space.

It's very reassuring to know that my Papal Decree has your support.

[Matt Day]

We have a par 3 (2nd) following the par 5 1st and its always a bottleneck when busy. As soon as they clear the 2nd there's no problems.

These are public golfers so skill levels vary but its definitely a slow point on the course

[Brett_Morrissy]

Hasn't Ran installed that dislike button yet?

[Ken Moum]

We have a par 3 (2nd) following the par 5 1st and its always a bottleneck when busy. As soon as they clear the 2nd there's no problems.

These are public golfers so skill levels vary but its definitely a slow point on the course

Par 3 seconds are almost always a holdup because it's possible to get groups off the first about every seven minutes, but there's no par three I've seen that allows that.

We have a course in Topeka with a an easy par four first folowed by a very short (driveable for some) that causes people all sorts of trouble around the green.  On most Sat. mornings when I played there, any time after about 10 a.m. you could count on two or three groups standing on the second tee.

The third is another fairly simple par four followed by a drop-shot par three over a hazard.

On several occasions my group got to the fourth tee having taken more than hour to play three holes.... only to be confronted with another backup.  The group ahead of us wasn't even on the tee yet because the people ahead of them were just leaving the tee.

To make matters worse, the fifth is reachable par five with a completely blind second shot.

More than once it took us well over three hours to make the turn.  Typically, we'd be able to play the back in under two hours due to the number of nine-hole players and the better layout of the back, pace management wise.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Whenever I had to assign tee offs on a shotgun format, if there were more than 18 teams, the first tee I doubled up on was a par 3 following a par 5.   Then, a par 4 following a par 5.

It always went smoothly, until more than 22 teams were involved.

[Michael Whitaker]

Bill Yates of Pace Manager Systems has numerous publications on this subject. Here is a quote from one of them:

Course Design
The flow of holes and the sequence of pars will determine how smoothly the course will play. Courses with unusual routings and/or severe terrain need special attention when managing the daily operations of the course. For example a par 5 followed by a par 3 will  almost always create a backup at the par 3 tee.

Here is a link to the source:  http://www.ngcoa.ca/Userfiles/GBC_Covers/GBC_pdfs/2012-FALL-feature.pdf

Another great quote from Yates:

When I began studying the dynamics of pace of play, I asked an industry big-wig to put me in touch with Pete Dye. His response: “What’s an architect got to do with pace of play?”

“Just about everything,” I said.

Consider the elements of a course’s Pace Rating—playing length, severity and location of obstacles, and green-to-tee distances—and think about who is responsible for these? The course design determines how long it should take to play. Through the design, the architect also controls the hole sequencing (pattern of par 3, 4 and 5 holes), which determines the flow and rhythm of play. Here’s an all-too-familiar example. The first hole is a long uphill par 5 and is followed by a par 3 of more than 200 yards. Cresting the hill to the first green, you are horrified to see the two groups ahead of you waiting to tee off on number 2. Fifteen minutes into your round and you’re already chewing nails. The pace of play begins on the architect’s drawing board so a little planning ahead can make all the difference.

The bottom line? The architect determines how long it should take to play a course, and the course manager, superintendent, and players all determine how long it does take to play the course.

Link to the source article: http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/get-a-move-on