[mike_beene]

the broadmoor does a super job.i wish they would put the 18 ross holes into one course.

[D. Kilfara]

I did some work on PtP when I was interning at Golf Digest - and a LOT of work goes into it - and I find the concept to be quite a good one. It accomplishes its mission superbly, I think; I also think there's plenty of room in the spectrum of ratings services to include one which talks to the average American golfer in language he understands. Why should all golf course rankings be purely about the golf course architecture?

By the way, what qualifies as a 3-star, 4-star or 5-star course varies per geography - people living in rural Nevada or Maine (etc.) are more likely to give a merely decent course quite good ratings than are people with many good facilities to choose from. That quirk is spelled out in each survey.

Cheers,
Darren

[Tom Doak]

Darren,

The flaw with Places to Play is that a lot of readers will go to Timber Ridge expecting it to be somehow on a par with Pinehurst #2 or Pebble Beach, and they will likely be disappointed.  [I've never seen Timber Ridge, but from its inception it has always scored extra-high in every GOLF DIGEST poll.  I wonder how they do it.]

I was a bit surprised that Bandon Dunes wasn't a 5-star course.  I assume that Pacific Dunes wasn't eligible for the list yet.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Tom--

Brandon Dunes got 4 1/2 stars with a "good value," "great condition" and "great pace" mentions.  Readers Comments: Great course, great scenery, love walking-only policy.  Buy yardage book or spend the $35 bucks for a caddie ... Awesome!  I drove 5 hours to get there--was worth every bit...  My favorite golf course ever!  Golf as it was meant to be ... Nothing can compare to this experinece.  Utopia ... My #1 pick.

Pacific Dunes obviously didn't have enough readers play it for a star rating.  It does have a mention in the book, though.

[JohnV]

I was wondering when someone would mention Bandon being missing.  I can't believe that it would get mentioned for "great pace" as that is the one issue the most people have.  Nice to see "great condition" mentioned as it isn't the typical American GREEN course.

Nice to see that some people are doing well enough that $300+ for a course can still be a "great value."

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

BTW--  

I just got my copy of the "Places to Play" book from Amazon.  I'm sure its in your local bookstore if any of y'all are interested in checking out your favorite public-access courses...

[redanman]

the broadmoor does a super job.i wish they would put the 18 ross holes into one course.

I've always wished that, but quite frankly the staff is unaware of which holes are Ross and even that the courses are mixed.  They are a very expensive place to stay, mostly pressed with creature comforts and experience.  Conditioning is of course quite high calibre. A lot of the teeth and look of the Ross course has been removed, the last I saw of the original 18 hole plan by Ross was hanging in of all places the South (Palmer-Douane) clubhouse, extant from any of the Ross or even Jones holes!  Virtually all of the original bunkering has been changed or eliminated, a feature common to ALL of Ross's courses in Colorado.

I believe that one of the original 18 Ross was eliminated to allow the routing to flow across the street to incorporate the Jones hles added in the 50's about the same time RTJ Sr did the Eisenhower course at AFA.

Broadmoor is a pleasant place to play, but if you're searching for a Donald Ross experience, you'll be disappointed.

[D. Kilfara]

Tom - if people wish to be deluded into thinking that Pebble Beach and Belgrade Lakes are on the same level (by not reading the qualifying comments at the front of PtP), then they'll be deluded. That's kinda like someone reading the Golfweek Top 100 Classical List and saying, "Gosh, Pine Valley must have the most attractive beverage cart girls in the land, huh?", isn't it? I think you have to give the average golfer at least a little bit more credit than that - anyway, I wouldn't have thought that PtP is likely going to be anyone's only source of information when booking a golf holiday. Hopefully most people will be thinking, "Timber Ridge gets 5 stars? Hmm...there must be *something* there worth seeing," rather than expecting earthly perfection in equal measure from both places.

Having said all that, I still wonder why Bandon Dunes got only 4.5 stars. Is it still the case that golfers can only rate courses in their home state? Maybe that has something to do with it - Oregonians clearly have it too good.

Cheers,
Darren

[DMoriarty]

I wonder if Bandon's close proximity to Pacific Dunes hurt it in this poll.  Pacific Dunes seems to be doing slightly better in other rankings.  Maybe the raters hesitate to give it a great score since it may not even be the best course on the site.

This may also explain why Pinon Hills dropped off the list. Paako Ridge (a new Ken Dye course in New Mexico) has received very positive reviews, and readers may hesitate to
give excellent marks to Pinon, being that it may not even be the best Ken Dye course in New Mexico.  I realize that Pinon and Paako are 5 hours apart, but courses are relatively sparse in NM. (This fits with Darren's statement that as people are exposed to more good courses they become tougher raters.)

I understand Tom Doak's point about some readers being disappointed by the 5 star courses, but agree with Darren that the list is a good idea.  At some point, I think you have to place some responsibility on reader to actually try to understand what it is that they are reading.  The ratings criterion are not that hard to figure out.  

Also, the list provides a valuable service by helping people locate courses that might be worth seeking out.  When I was on a college budget and could barely afford to play, let alone play Pebble, I used the list to locate courses that weren't terrible and that I could afford.  I even made a few multiple day treks to Pinon so that I could play alot of golf on a good course for very little money.  I wasnt the only one.  It was common to be paired with others who had made a similar trek.  One trip I played 36-54 holes for 3 days with a 20 year old from Korea who had seen the ratings and rented a cheap apartment in Farmington so he could spend the summer playing at an affordable course.

It is easy to pick out the courses on the list that are vastly overrated, but are there an abundance of courses that are grossly underrated (not just by a half-star or so)?

[redanman]

I just thumbed through the lists in Wegman's (I won't pay for these rags) and saw an interesting thing.  Colorado showed #2 in the topic of average course quality. I would certainly echo that.  However, based upon hte other lists, it's probably sadly due to the mountain scenery rather than recognition of architectural quality.

Pebble Beach topped the list of courses hosting over 50k rounds.  That still astounds me.  Over $22.5M!  JC!  Gotta pay those bills.


AND............. Broadmoor topped the "service" list.

[Doug Wright]

BillV,

"We're #2?" Just so you know, we stuffed the ballot box...

All The Best,
  

[redanman]

BillV,

"We're #2?" Just so you know, we stuffed the ballot box...

All The Best,
  

Just so there's absolutely no doubt, I fully agree that public acces golf in Colorado is great.  The front range has many a fine course for <$30.  In fact, the new public access is notably better on average than the clubs.

[A_Clay_Man]

Redanman- I think RJ Harper would be first to point out that not all those rounds are revenue. But I can tell you the pro-shop does 54k a day (pre 9-11)And I don't think that includes green fees.

[redanman]

redanman- I think RJ Harper would be first to point out that not all those rounds are revenue. But I can tell you the pro-shop does 54k a day (pre 9-11)And I don't think that includes green fees.

That only works out to about $20M.  Can't include fees.  Not with $6 logo balls and MSRP on all merchandise.  

[Tom Doak]

I just thumbed through the book yesterday, while killing time on a rain-out day.  I was curious how the readers of GOLF DIGEST ranked my own courses, and here's what I found:

**** 1/2:  Beechtree and Riverfront
****     :  Black Forest and The Legends (Heathland)
*** 1/2  :  Apache Stronghold and High Pointe
***       :  Quail Crossing
** 1/2    :  Charlotte Golf Links

I don't know exactly what to make of that, other than conditioning being a huge factor.  (Quail Crossing was in better shape than Apache Stronghold and High Pointe the last time I saw each of them, but otherwise they are ranked exactly according to the quality of their maintenance.)

I was particularly surprised [but pleased] to see Riverfront rated so highly.  I figured the housing would put off the average player, and the course gets no mention in all those back-of-the-book paid adverts for Virginia Beach or Williamsburg in GOLF DIGEST, yet it scored higher than all of them.

[Peter Pratt (Guest)]

As someone who lives across the street from Timber Ridge, I can only echo David Wigler's and others' comments. It's a good course, even better than it once was, but it's not anything remotely close to a five-star course.

My suspicion is that some frineds of mine who are members there stuffed the ballot box. I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often--in fact, it probably does.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

frineds?  Don't you mean "fiends?"

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

frineds?  Don't you mean "fiends?"

[D. Kilfara]

Why would you want to stuff the PtP ballot box, making your course more popular and thereby making it more difficult to get tee times? If I played all of my golf at a semi-private or public course, if anything I'd try and get the ballot box stuffed with 1-star ratings and lots of negative comments - not that I'm into that sort of thing...

Cheers,
Darren

[texsport]

I haven't played the Pines @ Grand View Lodge in about 3 years, but if it's still similar to what it was then, it should be as far away from that list as possible. It's not even the best course owned by the Grand View Lodge Resort, so how it made this list is beyond me.

BryanC
 Your estimate of Grand View Lodge as a 5 Star place to play is on the money. The Pines is not a very good golf course, having too many poorly conceived holes. Their newest course, The Deacon, is no where near 5 Star quality either. It plays much easier than it looks. All the trouble off the tee is easily avoided or simply flown. It's slope rating is less than 130 from the tips.
  Giants Ridge and Wildflower are both clearly better courses than anything at Grand View and they're both in Minnesota.
  Did anyone notice the huge ad for Grand View Lodge in the
 back of that edition of Golf Digest? I think the marketing people at Grand View bought themselves onto the list. Nobody who has played there and knows anything about golf could possibly put Grand View on a list with Pinehurst, Pebble, Whistling Staits and Blackwolf.
  One of the points listed in Grand View's favor was the rapid rate of play. THAT'S BECAUSE IN A STATE WITH THE HIGHEST PER CAPITA
NUMBER OF GOLFERS-NOBODY IS PLAYING GRAND VIEW'S COURSES.
   This list, just like all of Golf Digest's lists of courses is seriously flawed. In this case I suspect funny business.

Texsport

[Robert]

I think this book is worthless. You can find much better info on golf courses to play in www.travelgolf.com for free.

I wouldn't ever waste my money on this guide.

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