[Ed Oden]

I thought about posting this on Jerry Kluger’s “Risk/Reward Par 5” thread (link here:  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39870.0/ ), but decided to start a new thread instead.  Here is a Google Earth image of the 18th hole at Old North State Club on the shores of Badin Lake in NC:


This hole is a par 5 marked at 568 yards from the Championship tees.  But for purposes of this thread, I am using the next longest set of tees, marked at 534 yards, since they are the most commonly played.  Regardless, the marked length is largely irrelevant because the sharpness of the dogleg reduces the effective yardage considerably.  The white line shows a drive of 225 yards, which leaves an equal distance of 225 yards to the center of the green.  The red line reflects a drive of 250 yards, leaving 215 yards to the green.  The yellow line is a 275 yard drive with 205 yards remaining to the center of the green.  And the blue line shows a 300 yard drive, which leaves 195 yards. 

What you see is that anyone who can hit the ball 225 yards off the tee has an enticing shot at reaching the green in two.  From there its really just a shade over 200 yard carry to clear the right side of the greenside bunker and reach the front of the green.  But notice the diminishing returns of longer drives.  For each additional 25 yards you hit it off the tee, you only gain 10 yards on the flag.  Plus the fairway narrows the longer the drive and finding the fairway is critical since only the best or most foolish golfers would risk going for the green from the rough.  For that reason, many longer hitters take a fairway wood or even a long iron off the tee because they almost certainly will have a go at the green as long as they can find the short grass.  So what you have is a par 5 that presents a viable risk/reward option for a broad range of skill levels.

Of course, nothing works for everyone.  Take a look at the pink line.  It represents a 200 yard drive.  That golfer has no chance of going for the green.   Even if he moves up a tee box, it is too far.  Moreover, he is left with a tough layup of 150 yards to a tight landing area with water in play.  And if he pulls it off, he’s left with another 150 yards to reach the green.

In my experience, low handicappers eat this hole up.  A par is a disappointment.  Mid and even mid-high handicappers love the hole because it is a rare realistic opportunity for glory.  On the other hand, really high handicappers often struggle to finish the hole, ending the round on a sour note.

So what do you think?  Is this a good design for a risk/reward par 5?

PS – Here is the view from the tee…


…and from the 225 yard drive range…


…and from the 300 yard drive range…

[ed_getka]

Ed,
   Thanks for taking the time to post the diagram and pix. Does the green slope from left to right? I would think that would be one way of improving the hole. The slope of the green would keep shots from a poor angle from holding the green, so a longer driver would be rewarded with the better angle if not much gain in approach shot distance. Also the higher handicapper would have a preferable angle for getting on the green with his third shot. If a higher handicapper can't play this hole in bogey then they shouldn't be on a golf course anyway. Four 120 yard shots and two putts for bogey.
   I think it is probably a good hole for a variety of golfers from what I see here. In the photo it appears claustrophobic from the tee. If playing as a 3 shot hole I don't think there is enough to think about on the second shot for a decent golfer.

[Matt MacIver]

Ed - have only played it a few times, but it didn't occur to me to hit anything other than driver off the tee.  I guess I could have laid up shorter & straighter.  For my second shot I recall aiming short of the green and trying to draw my second shot on the green, as I thought I saw a bank near the green to help that shot on, and I assumed the green sloped towards the water so that was the preferred shot. 

If the green slopes away from the water then I was fooled!  But I probably still wouldn't aim for the center. 

All in all a decent r-r hole....maybe more interesting if the fairway bottlenecked off the tee? 

[David Whitmer]

I have been fortunate enough to play Old North State Club 3 or so times...what a nice golf course in a beautiful setting! I found #18 to play just as Ed described for better golfers. I believe I had 2 birdies and a par. However, I do not remember it being a real difficult layup for a higher handicap golfer. I played with one, and he layed up to what seemed to me to be a very generous area, then he had a short iron to a green that was open to his line of play.

It seemed to me to be a perfect 18th hole, as a match that was not yet closed out could go either way. I, too, never thought about teeing off with anything other than a driver, as it seems to me to be the best way to get close or on the green with your second shot. I like the fact that if I pull off a decent drive on the 18th hole, I'm rewarded with a better chance to hit the green.

[Ed Oden]

While the green isn't severely sloped, it generally flows front to back and right to left, toward the water.  Here is a closeup of the green taken from the tee that shows the falloff back left and the mound front right that Matt referred to...



And here is another one taken from just short and right of the green...



I don't think holding the green is a big concern from any angle, although if I had my choice, clearly I'd prefer to be 300 yards down the center of the fairway.  But the fairway does bottleneck down there.

Theoretically, this hole shouldn't be tough for high handicappers.  But in reality, I think it is.  A high handicapper isn't just hitting it shorter.  He is also far more likely to miss the fairway.  And finding the short grass on your drive is the key to the hole.  If you pull it left off the tee, you are in the water and toast.  Lesser pulls find the fairway bunker or rough. And missing the fairway on the right means hitting out of rough from a severely downhill lie.  Trust me, the layup from any spot other than the fairway is no bargain.  Ed G is right, even poor players could almost always make a 6 here by playing it as a 4 shot hole.  But in my experience, that rarely happens.  This hole has a strange way of making better players be more conservative (i.e., off the tee) and making high handicappers be more aggressive (i.e., on the layup). 

For what its worth, this hole has never fit my eye, particularly off the tee, even though I score extremely well here.  I much prefer holes 15-17.  But my personal preferences aside, I think it does a better job than most par fives at providing risk/reward opportunities to a broad range of skill levels.

Ed

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