SWINLEY FOREST - Odds n' Sods

[Paul_Turner]

Does anyone have a nice pic of the 11th green with the 15th hole in the background?  I think I have an old pic (not sure if it made the book?) which I can dig out for comparison.

[Sean_A]

A few more interesting tidbits concerning Colt.  These may cause an already crazed Tom P to fall deeper over the edge. 

Apparently, during 1911-12 Colt was working on St Georges Hill, The Eden and Blackmoor, among others AND travelled to North America three times where he designed Toronto and was a PAID advisor to George Crump.  Of course, he was still acting as secretary to both Sunningdale and Swinley as well.  Talk about being stretched thin!  It makes you wonder how much time Colt could actually give to a project and why some of his courses look a bit similar. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Those dates are all completely wrong (probably taken from the mistakes in"Colt and Co").  Colt visited America three times but in three separate years:  1911, 1913 and 1914.

Makes me wonder about the rest??

[Thomas MacWood]

Another piece of news to me is that Colt serveved as their Secretary for the first few years, common knowledge?

Tony
Thats news to me too. I wonder about that. I can't imagine Sunnindale being too keen about that idea.

His resignation in 1911 as secretary of Sunningdale was big news, and at the time there was no mention of him having the duties at SF too. When Sunningdale convinced him to stay and he resigned again in 1913, it was big news again, and again no metion of SF. I wonder if he was an honorary secretary.

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

According to N Courtney, the work Colt was doing for Swinley was above board and approved by Sunningdale.  Whether or not the club envisioned that they would eventually lose Colt to the design business is matter of speculation.  It is believed that Sunningdale was very happy with Colt and were willing to work with him a bit to keep things sweet. 

It would seem Colt was paid £200 (basically £100 per year) to design the course, oversee its construction and get the club up and running.  Later (presumably by 1912), he was to receive £100 per year as an advisory member to the committee - which in effect was a lot of secretarial type duties such as finding a pro, organizing the caddie crew etc.  I don't believe this was ever meant to be a full time position.  Otherwise the salary would probably have been much higher as Colt was being paid £300 per annum at Sunningdale by 1904.  Could it be that Colt saw Swinley as his opportunity to jump ship from secretarial duties and go full time into design?  It doesn't seem so far fetched to me especially as he had quite comfortable salary money behind him to ease the transition. 

Ciao

[Andrew Bertram]

Thanks for the great photos

I am taking some members to the UK next year and Swinley is on our agenda and after seeing these i am so happy i made the extreme effort to make arrangements to play there.

Simply stunning.
 

[Andrew Hastie]

Paul,

It's not the greatest photo but it is what you asked for, 11th green with 15th in the background.



Andrew

[Paul_Turner]

Andrew

Thanks that will work fine.  A comparison.

Apart from the obvious tree growth etc.  Looks like the 11th green is not maintained to its original size.  The bunkers on 15th are in the same place but a bit smaller and definitely less sand.

[Adam_Messix]

Swinley Forest's greens have definitely shrunk well inside their green pad.  There are a number of really neat hole locations that can be reclaimed if the greens are restored to their original dimensions.

[Sean_A]

Reading on I find that the 10th has been altered.  The tee has been moved forward and the green pushed back.  I wonder if that right to left angle was created by green being moved.  This is another superb par 3.

The 14th, not really one of the better holes on the course has also been altered.  The green has been pushed back some 25 yards making the approach tough to make out.

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

If the 10th was changed (the yardage is about right on old card), it was pretty early.  An aerial from just after WW2 (1947 ish) shows it in the correct place, both tee and green.

[Rich Goodale]

Another piece of news to me is that Colt serveved as their Secretary for the first few years, common knowledge?

Tony
Thats news to me too. I wonder about that. I can't imagine Sunnindale being too keen about that idea.

His resignation in 1911 as secretary of Sunningdale was big news, and at the time there was no mention of him having the duties at SF too. When Sunningdale convinced him to stay and he resigned again in 1913, it was big news again, and again no metion of SF. I wonder if he was an honorary secretary.

Tom

Secretaries and Honoray Secretaries hold the same duties in UK golf clubs.  The only difference is that the "Honorary" Secretary is not paid a salary, but rather receives an equivalent "Honorarium" voted by themembers at each Annual General Meeting.  Whether Colt was "honorary" or not makes no difference.  If he was the Secretary of SF, he was the Head Honcho.

Rich

[Sean_A]

If the 10th was changed (the yardage is about right on old card), it was pretty early.  An aerial from just after WW2 (1947 ish) shows it in the correct place, both tee and green.

Paul

According to the book, Colt originally had the hole listed at 230 yards (it is now 205 yards) - which is another gross error in measurement.  The tee was further back, behind the hut and the green was in front of the first bunker. 

Tommy Mac

I don't think there is any doubt that Colt was the de facto secretary of Swinley Forest.  He did far more than just design the course for the club.   

Ciao                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Does the book state where the original yardages come from?

Again if the 10th was altered I reckon it must have been in the 1920s or 1930s.  It's unlikely a new green would have been built during WW2.

[Dean Stokes]

This is how all golf courses should look. Fabulous.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Does the book state where the original yardages come from?

Again if the 10th was altered I reckon it must have been in the 1920s or 1930s.  It's unlikely a new green would have been built during WW2.

Paul

The book has a copy of the original Length of Holes chart.  All numbers are rounded off to the nearest 5 yards.  I wouldn't be surprised if Colt was just guessing at the yardage and/or purposely over estimated the yardage to get the course over 6000 yards (6185 is the distance given). 

It would seem the club resisted having the course measured as it was "not Swinley".  A card from the probably the 1940s shows 6001 yards.  Not too many years ago a real measurement was taken and the course was found to be 5920 yards.  The secretary suggested:

adding 26 yards to the 1st hole 
adding 6 yards to the 5th hole
adding more bunkers around the 5th green to make it a par 5
reducing the 12th to a par 4. 

All of this would result in a sss of 69 with a par of 68.   

Not long later a sss 70 was agreed upon by adding 54 yards to the 15th (the tees which go way back).  In just most recent years some yardage gas been added for a total of 6062 yards.

One aspect the book doesn't go into is when Colt finally had nothing to do with the club.  It is my impression that nothing had changed around Swinley from at least the mid 30s up to the late 80s call it about 50 years.  Though I am not sure Colt was used or consulted for many of the changes made.  Its such a strange deal.

There are some awesome pix though.  They mainly depict Swinley when it wasn't so harrassed by trees.  One of #9 is just out of this world.

Ciao

[Paul Nash]

I played the course again last September and they had made a change on 2006 - they have reduced the length and par of the 15th - now a long and difficult 450-yard uphill par 4 off the blue markers (as it always was from the yellows and whites). The course is now a 6019 yard par 68 SSS 70 from the back tees. It is a wonderful, charming, relaxed place to play golf but I can't help agreeing with Sean that it is ever so slightly overrated - but some holes are superb - all par 3s, the 5th, and 2 of the best par 4s anywhere, the 9th and 12. However, saying that, I think that 6, 7, 11 and 14 are a bit weak compared to the rest. Given a choice of a day's golf, I think I would pick The Berkshire (a decent drive and wedge away from the 10th tee) rather than Swinley - it has 36 holes and several are not great, especially on the front 9 of the Blue but, overall, it is a wonderful place to golf with a far few superb holes.

[Sean_A]

I played the course again last September and they had made a change on 2006 - they have reduced the length and par of the 15th - now a long and difficult 450-yard uphill par 4 off the blue markers (as it always was from the yellows and whites). The course is now a 6019 yard par 68 SSS 70 from the back tees. It is a wonderful, charming, relaxed place to play golf but I can't help agreeing with Sean that it is ever so slightly overrated - but some holes are superb - all par 3s, the 5th, and 2 of the best par 4s anywhere, the 9th and 12. However, saying that, I think that 6, 7, 11 and 14 are a bit weak compared to the rest. Given a choice of a day's golf, I think I would pick The Berkshire (a decent drive and wedge away from the 10th tee) rather than Swinley - it has 36 holes and several are not great, especially on the front 9 of the Blue but, overall, it is a wonderful place to golf with a far few superb holes.

Paul

Something doesn't jive.  Colt listed the hole at 480 yards.  Now I spose this could be round about true when one considers that the Colt course had the 14th green further toward the 14th tee.  The 15th may have been a straightaway hole.  Even so, 480 yards from this angle seems extreme considering its only 450 from the new back tees which makes the dogleg more balanced than previously.   

Also, I am not certain the 15th ever was a par 5.  It was a bogey 5 made into a par 4.  Though the book states 54 yards were added to make a 450ish yard hole - as it is today.  This means the members must have been playing from a tee of about 400 yards rather than the previously thought 430ish yard hole or the ridiculous number Colt gave of 480 yards. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

What's all this nonsense about Swinley Forest being overrated, eh   Overrated by whom?   Ran,me, GCAers in general??

Certainly not by the magazines which have it behind a whole slew of English inland courses that aren't as good and 6,7 ,11 and 14 are all excellent holes, all superb par 4s that are nothing like eachother.

Rant over.

Similarly to the 10th, if the 14th green was pushed back, it looks to be early-pre WW2.  Because the hole looks right in circa 1947.  The mounding behind both 10 and 14th greens looks to be pure old school work too.

Yes that back 15th tee was added fairly recently (last 10-15 years) to make it 493 yards according to my StrokeSaver from the back (blue) tees and a par 5, so now that tee seems to have been abandoned? 

The original/1947 back tee looks to be in the same cutting as that (abandoned?) back tee but not quite as far back: about level with the front edge of the 11th green.  It would have been about 460 yards if measured along its center line (slight dog-leg) a bit more than as the crow/ball flies.

There's no way that the 15th was ever 400 yards from the back tee!

I think it was a big mistake for Swinley to cave in and open the door to StrokeSaver.

 

[Sean_A]

What's all this nonsense about Swinley Forest being overrated, eh   Overrated by whom?   Ran,me, GCAers in general??

Certainly not by the magazines which have it behind a whole slew of English inland courses that aren't as good and 6,7 ,11 and 14 are all excellent holes, all superb par 4s that are nothing like eachother.

Rant over.

Similarly to the 10th, if the 14th green was pushed back, it looks to be early-pre WW2.  Because the hole looks right in circa 1947.  The mounding behind both 10 and 14th greens looks to be pure old school work too.

Yes that back 15th tee was added fairly recently (last 10-15 years) to make it 493 yards according to my StrokeSaver from the back (blue) tees and a par 5, so now that tee seems to have been abandoned? 

The original/1947 back tee looks to be in the same cutting as that (abandoned?) back tee but not quite as far back: about level with the front edge of the 11th green.  It would have been about 460 yards if measured along its center line (slight dog-leg) a bit more than as the crow/ball flies.

There's no way that the 15th was ever 400 yards from the back tee!

I think it was a big mistake for Swinley to cave in and open the door to StrokeSaver.

 

Paul

Looking at what I believe to be the best rankings of GB&I courses out there, Swinley is listed 43.  http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/topcourses.asp?Move=Next&id=1  This may be about right as I can only rattle off maybe 20 courses from the top of my head which I think are clearly better than Swinley.  I don't think the other major sources of rankings in GB&I are terribly different so perhaps you are right.  Swinley is likely not over-rated. 

I also stand corrected on 15.  It was a par 5 of 493 according to the card I have from when I was last there a few years ago.  Thinking of it now, it was a tough sob to reach, but I thought it was a par 4 or maybe my mind is playing tricks with me.  With the tee moved up some 40 yards I spose folks now have to draw a shot round the corner or risk going through the fairway around where the right fairway bunkers are.  There is one good thing about the change, the walk from 14 is reduced!

I wonder why they can't make up their minds about the 15th.  I will say that with a par of 68 at just over 6000 yards this course plays tough.  I agree, I don't know why the secretary (Pierce?) some 20 years ago decided that Swinley needed to join the modern age.  I wouldn't mind if the bogey card were brought back and the number of tees reduced.  Its not like there are harsh carries.  This business with trying to attain certain a sss is dopey.  I say, it just isn't Swinley. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - I cannot imagine SF has many aliens in the membership. I played foursomes with a SF member at NZ recently, after making him spend half the round hacking out of the heather and bushes it seemed imprudent to suggest a game there!!

Andrew Bertram - Where else are your travels taking you? SF is a top choice.
 

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean,

Played Swinley for the first time today with Bob Crosby, a wonderful all round experience. Our member informed us the club had built a new tee on 15 making it a par 5 but it didn't really work for them so the hole is back to playing a par 4. It appeared to be a better long iron par 4 than an up hill pitch approach to a par 5.

Chappers

[Dan Boerger]

Sean - Thanks for this info ... I'm due to play SF in the next few weeks and now really looking forward to it.