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PCCraig

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2009, 04:27:12 PM »
Pat--you are so right although I was trying to go outside the US.  The Western Open certainly was considered by many to be a major for a long time and I can assure you my uncle would love to have a "major" under his belt!

Who is your Uncle?
H.P.S.

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2009, 04:30:45 PM »
I was thinking about this issue this morning, and I came to the conclusion that there are only three majors: Masters, US Open, Open Championship.  The Ryder Cup is the next most important professional event.  After The Ryder Cup, the next big three events for US pros are the PGA Championship, The Players, The Memorial.  For Europe the next biggies might be Dubai and their PGA Championship.

I based this conclusion on how much I anticipate each event, how many career moments occur at each event, the strength of each event’s field, and how often the winner of each event is a player having a great year.

The three majors are obvious.  The debate for me is only what is the big events after these three.

The PGA Championship has become somewhat of an alternative major or a "lite-major".  There are more discussions on this site and with friends about Augusta and about the courses to hold the two Opens.  The PGA course is usually only mentioned after the other three majors are concluded.  There were never any discussions on this site about if Merion could host a PGA Championship, nor are there any discussions about what great public courses could be considered to host a PGA Championship.  I can immediately name all of the courses where Nicklaus and Hogan won their Opens, but do not ask me to name where each won their PGAs.  When I think of Nicklaus winning majors I think of his putt on 16 at Augusta in 1975, his winning putt at St. Andrews in 1972, dueling down the stretch against Aoki in 1980, or his 1-iron at Pebble Beach in 1972.  Even his great losses I usually only think of the 1971 US Open, 1977 Open or 1982 US Open.  The only memorable Nicklaus related moment I think of with the PGA is Hal Sutton managing to not allow Nicklaus to win in 1983 at Riviera.

It bothers Snead not winning a US Open 100x more than it bothers Palmer or Watson not winning a PGA Championship.  I bet Trevino would trade his two PGAs for two more US Opens.  Davis Love, Lanny Wadkins, Hal Sutton, they are satisfied to at least have won a major.  But Ken Venturie and Johnny Miller made post-playing careers out of winning a US Open.  No one complains that Steven Elkington, Mark Brooks, or Wayne Grady have a PGA Championship.  But people have fun complaining about Andy Northing having won 2 US Open, Orville Moody having won a US Open, or that Ben Curtis and Todd Hamilton won The Open Championship.

Next, I have been to a PGA Championship in my hometown, but I never thought of making any effort to see an out-of-town PGA, but I did travel from St. Louis to Boston for a US Open, and from St. Louis to Chicago for a US Open, and bought tickets to see the US Open Bethpage while living in Springfield, MA.

Tiger did have a very exciting PGA Championship when beating Bob May, and also when losing to Rich Beem.  But Tiger on his game is exciting at any tournament, and anyone not collapsing to Tiger is also always exciting.

The Masters, and the Opens are the events one anticipates and contemplates all year and forever, whereas the PGA only matters for a few weeks before and a few days after it is completed.

The two Opens and the Masters elicit passion, the PGA only elicits respect.

The Ryder Cup is not a major (can not be since it is restricted to the US and Europe) but it is the 4th event that people want to debate what courses should host it, how the course was set-up.  It is the other event where players’ performances are most discussed, and the one other tournament that can create career highlight moments.

So after the three majors and the Ryder Cup, the next biggest event is the PGA Championships for the US and Europe, followed by the Players, The Memorial and Dubai.  Each of these events are contested on courses that golf fans can enjoy debating about.  Each event has great fields.  Finally, if you look at the winner of each event often that winner has been a player having a great year.

Now as I said this was an idea I was just ruminating on this morning, so I reserve the right to call this theory as junk 24 hours from now, so let me know anything wrong (or right) about these thoughts.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Chris Cupit

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2009, 05:50:08 PM »
Pat--you are so right although I was trying to go outside the US.  The Western Open certainly was considered by many to be a major for a long time and I can assure you my uncle would love to have a "major" under his belt!

Who is your Uncle?

Jacky Cupit--he won the Western Open in '62, Canadian Open in '61 and lost US Open in playoff in '63.  Neat trivia--he was rookie of the year on tour in 1961 and set the all time money record for a rookie that year as well with $22,814.  That record lasted all of a year until some fat, blond haired kid from Ohio had a pretty good '62. :)

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2009, 06:57:15 PM »
5th = US Amateur
6th = British Amateur
Kevin, I'm always amused when golfing traditionalists try to suggest that modern amateur championships are at such a level.  They simply aren't - how many players players in last year's US or British Amateur would be amongst the top 100 players in the world?

They mattered in Bobby Jones' day, because there were fantastic players who never turned professional.  The amateur championships had good fields.  Now any kid who can get the ball airborne is a pro by 23.

Just a question for the non-traditionalists.  When did the AMateurs stop being majors?  When Jones was winning them they counted.  When Palmer and Nicklaus were chasing Jones' record of 13 majors they counted.  They counted for SI in 1978 when Jack won Sportsman of the Year and at the time had 17 majors.  The NY Times counted them when Jack was on his march to break Jones' record.  In the 1986 Masters telecast more than one reference to Jack's 20th major is made so they counted then.

Then a phenom (who happens to be black) comes along and is on the cusp of breaking Jack's records and would be closer if Amateurs "still" counted and yet someone decides THEN, no let's not count those.  What gives?

I also think that by not counting Amateurs it gave some writers the chance to talk about Mickelson, O'Meara not having "majors" until they broke through .  BTW Sergio would have a major if AMs counted but it's a better story to say he is "majorless" isn't it?  (Come to think of it in his case maybe they shouldn't count ;)). 

If we belabor the point certainly the Western Open was a major for some time in its history and the Open Championship should have certainly lost its major status for a while anyway since there were times when none or very few of the best players competed in that as well.  The Masters must also be glad strength of field isn't what (alone) makes a major.

But back to my original question.  When did Amateur Championships stop counting as majors?  For extra credit, who decided and why? :D

I will give one theory why the two Amateur Championships do not hold "major" status any longer.

Going back to 1981 three people have won the US Am, and then gone on to win a professional major (Tiger Woods, Phil Mickleson, & Justin Leonard).  Where as, from 1953 to 1980 eight of the men who won US Ams went on to win professional majors.

Since World War II, Jose Marie Olazabal is the only person to win a British Am, and go on to win a professional major. That was in 1984.  Since Jose’s win, Sergio Garcia is the only other British Am winner to have more than one win on the European or US tours.

In the last 22 Masters, only six winners have no more than one major title.  In the last 21 US Opens, only six winners have no more than one major title.  In the last 17 Opens, only six winners have no more than one major title.  Finally, in the last 15 PGAs, only six winners have no more than one major title.

Before World War II most winners of the Ams where lifelong Ams.  Robert Jones was the only Am to really dominate the pros.  In current times the best golfer will always be a professional.  Since Jones was THE dominant player for many years, and considered one of the best to every play, his full record was compared to any others also considered as one of the best.  Therefore for players like Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer, the Ams counted. Once a golfer (Tiger Woods) finally arrived to be a true successor to Nicklaus as the next possible "best ever", the Am did not appear to be an accurate way to evaluate greatness.

One would think just the opposite would occur, that since Tiger also dominated the amateur ranks, and passed Nicklaus on number of US Am titles, that the current sports media would want to count Tiger's three Ams.  Perhaps the fact that Tiger ignored making any real effort to get a British Am title resulted in some concluding that the Ams no longer mattered when counting "majors".  I think it is more likely that since before Tiger the prior 19 winners of the US Am included only won winner of a professional major may have been the biggest reason the media stopped counting Ams.  And that one winner was Hal Sutton, who won his Am in 1980, then won the 1983 PGA, but by the time Tiger arrived appeared to have had a disappointing career.  Since the Ams for almost 2 decades before Tiger had not been a precursor to greatness in the pro ranks, the major media had stopped thinking about the Ams and thus never considered looking at the Am counts when looking at the records that Tiger would be facing.  Since Tiger has dominated all in golf since 1997, the Ams no longer count as majors and likely never will again.

By the way, although Phil, Leonard, and O'Meara all won Ams before Tiger, they had not yet won any majors before Tiger's 1997 Masters win.

On a final note, Dan Jenkins once proposed that Ams should only count as majors once that player also wins a professional major.  Therefore Hal Sutton, Justin Leonard, Lanny Wadkins, Jerry Pate, and Craig Stadler now have 2 majors each.  But Sergio Garcia, Scott Verplank, and John Cook still have no majors.  Per this system, Tiger now has 17, and Nicklaus has 20.  Most amazingly John Ball moves from a tie for 77th (among most wins in the four professional majors) to a tie for 5th (nine: 1 Open Championship + 8 Amateur Championships) among the list of most wins in all six "majors".  76 players have won multiple professional majors and only seven of them have won one of the two Ams (Robert Jones, Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Mark O’Meara, Jose Marie Olazabal, Phil Mickelson & Tiger).  Of the 119 men with just one professional major win, only 12 of them have won either of the two Ams.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 07:42:36 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

mike_beene

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2009, 07:50:12 PM »
I would like to see the USPGA go every third year to Australia.,and maybe once a decade to South Africa.It would add prestige to the tournament,and I bet they would come out ahead financially if they formed correct partnerships.

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2009, 08:02:42 PM »
I would like to see the USPGA go every third year to Australia.,and maybe once a decade to South Africa.It would add prestige to the tournament,and I bet they would come out ahead financially if they formed correct partnerships.

I think the best thing the PGA could do is make themselves an alternative to the other three majors.  It may have helped to change to May before the Players did so that the PGA would lead up the two Opens, and thus not be anticlimactic.  Although the problem with a May date is that many northern courses may not yet be in prime condition.  Although your proposal sounds intriguing, we know it will not happen, just as a return to match play will not happen.

How then can the PGA stand out as unique just as the French Open stands out in tennis for the clay surface?  The PGA would have been better to avoid ALL prior US Open course, and to make an effort to get played on modern designs.  Let the US Open be the test on the "old classics", The Open the links championship, and then the PGA the test on the "modern designs".  Also, they should think about alternating with a March date every few years so as to be able to visit some southern US courses.  The March date will probably never happen, but they should make a concentrated and publicized effort to be the Major on the Modern courses.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2009, 07:37:33 AM »
Pat--you are so right although I was trying to go outside the US.  The Western Open certainly was considered by many to be a major for a long time and I can assure you my uncle would love to have a "major" under his belt!

Who is your Uncle?

Jacky Cupit--he won the Western Open in '62, Canadian Open in '61 and lost US Open in playoff in '63.  Neat trivia--he was rookie of the year on tour in 1961 and set the all time money record for a rookie that year as well with $22,814.  That record lasted all of a year until some fat, blond haired kid from Ohio had a pretty good '62. :)

Very cool Chris!

Geez...you could almost say he has two "majors" with the Canadian Open. Two great wins there.
H.P.S.

Mark Pritchett

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2009, 09:21:04 AM »
Though unlikely to happen, I would like to see the US PGA return to a match play format. 

Garland Bayley

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2009, 11:58:54 AM »
I can't believe you guys skipped over the prestigious Buda, KP and Dixie Cup events as worthy consideration for major golf events.

None of these events can qualify as a major until George Pazin closes down the shop for a week, gets on a plane, and plays the event, including giving a royal drubbing to Kalen.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2009, 12:06:43 PM »
I would argue the Masters is indeed a major based on Garland's points.  It is not a championship of anything and yet it is a major.  The field size is small but it gives the tournament a greater meaning to those invited, produces solid winners, and when they return they add to the charm of the event-just like they do to at the beloved Open Championship.  Would the Masters be a more of a major if it were rotated to, oh I don't know say, PGA National, Atlanta Athletic, etc.? 

   

I see so the small field at Tiger's World Challenge gives the greatest meaning to those invited. And the winners there are always very highly ranked world wide. Not only that, the great start to the Champions tour, the "Legends" event has the most charm of any event in the world, thereby qualifying it as the fifth major just behind the World Challenge.

Since the Masters is not a "real" major, I don't care where you rotate it to. It's just a great coming out party for early spring, with a lot of emotional attachment that clouds peoples' reasoning. It (aka the Bobby Jones) belongs to a similar group of tournaments like the Arnold Palmer, the Jack Nicklaus, etc.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2009, 12:10:54 PM »
5th = US Amateur
6th = British Amateur
Kevin, I'm always amused when golfing traditionalists try to suggest that modern amateur championships are at such a level.  They simply aren't - how many players players in last year's US or British Amateur would be amongst the top 100 players in the world?

They mattered in Bobby Jones' day, because there were fantastic players who never turned professional.  The amateur championships had good fields.  Now any kid who can get the ball airborne is a pro by 23.

Just a question for the non-traditionalists.  When did the AMateurs stop being majors?  When Jones was winning them they counted.  When Palmer and Nicklaus were chasing Jones' record of 13 majors they counted.  They counted for SI in 1978 when Jack won Sportsman of the Year and at the time had 17 majors.  The NY Times counted them when Jack was on his march to break Jones' record.  In the 1986 Masters telecast more than one reference to Jack's 20th major is made so they counted then.

Then a phenom (who happens to be black) comes along and is on the cusp of breaking Jack's records and would be closer if Amateurs "still" counted and yet someone decides THEN, no let's not count those.  What gives?

I also think that by not counting Amateurs it gave some writers the chance to talk about Mickelson, O'Meara not having "majors" until they broke through .  BTW Sergio would have a major if AMs counted but it's a better story to say he is "majorless" isn't it?  (Come to think of it in his case maybe they shouldn't count ;)). 

If we belabor the point certainly the Western Open was a major for some time in its history and the Open Championship should have certainly lost its major status for a while anyway since there were times when none or very few of the best players competed in that as well.  The Masters must also be glad strength of field isn't what (alone) makes a major.

But back to my original question.  When did Amateur Championships stop counting as majors?  For extra credit, who decided and why? :D

The Amateurs stopped being majors when Arnold Palmer self-servingly named the current crop of majors to a journalist on the way to (or from, I forget) the British Open. Since he had won the Masters before that, but not the Western Open, he chose the lesser of the two events, thereby perpetuating his mistake on the rest of us from that time forward.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2009, 12:13:43 PM »
Wow.... no love for the Western Open? It's the second oldest tournament in the US! And there is a big reason why Tiger played in it every year no matter what (prior to it being a FedEx tournament now). (

Tell that to "The King".
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2009, 12:19:53 PM »
I was thinking about this issue this morning, and I came to the conclusion that there are only three majors: Masters, US Open, Open Championship.  The Ryder Cup is the next most important professional event.  After The Ryder Cup, the next big three events for US pros are the PGA Championship, The Players, The Memorial.  For Europe the next biggies might be Dubai and their PGA Championship.

I based this conclusion on how much I anticipate each event, how many career moments occur at each event, the strength of each event’s field, and how often the winner of each event is a player having a great year.

The three majors are obvious.  The debate for me is only what is the big events after these three.

The PGA Championship has become somewhat of an alternative major or a "lite-major".  There are more discussions on this site and with friends about Augusta and about the courses to hold the two Opens.  The PGA course is usually only mentioned after the other three majors are concluded.  There were never any discussions on this site about if Merion could host a PGA Championship, nor are there any discussions about what great public courses could be considered to host a PGA Championship.  I can immediately name all of the courses where Nicklaus and Hogan won their Opens, but do not ask me to name where each won their PGAs.  When I think of Nicklaus winning majors I think of his putt on 16 at Augusta in 1975, his winning putt at St. Andrews in 1972, dueling down the stretch against Aoki in 1980, or his 1-iron at Pebble Beach in 1972.  Even his great losses I usually only think of the 1971 US Open, 1977 Open or 1982 US Open.  The only memorable Nicklaus related moment I think of with the PGA is Hal Sutton managing to not allow Nicklaus to win in 1983 at Riviera.

It bothers Snead not winning a US Open 100x more than it bothers Palmer or Watson not winning a PGA Championship.  I bet Trevino would trade his two PGAs for two more US Opens.  Davis Love, Lanny Wadkins, Hal Sutton, they are satisfied to at least have won a major.  But Ken Venturie and Johnny Miller made post-playing careers out of winning a US Open.  No one complains that Steven Elkington, Mark Brooks, or Wayne Grady have a PGA Championship.  But people have fun complaining about Andy Northing having won 2 US Open, Orville Moody having won a US Open, or that Ben Curtis and Todd Hamilton won The Open Championship.

Next, I have been to a PGA Championship in my hometown, but I never thought of making any effort to see an out-of-town PGA, but I did travel from St. Louis to Boston for a US Open, and from St. Louis to Chicago for a US Open, and bought tickets to see the US Open Bethpage while living in Springfield, MA.

Tiger did have a very exciting PGA Championship when beating Bob May, and also when losing to Rich Beem.  But Tiger on his game is exciting at any tournament, and anyone not collapsing to Tiger is also always exciting.

The Masters, and the Opens are the events one anticipates and contemplates all year and forever, whereas the PGA only matters for a few weeks before and a few days after it is completed.

The two Opens and the Masters elicit passion, the PGA only elicits respect.

The Ryder Cup is not a major (can not be since it is restricted to the US and Europe) but it is the 4th event that people want to debate what courses should host it, how the course was set-up.  It is the other event where players’ performances are most discussed, and the one other tournament that can create career highlight moments.

So after the three majors and the Ryder Cup, the next biggest event is the PGA Championships for the US and Europe, followed by the Players, The Memorial and Dubai.  Each of these events are contested on courses that golf fans can enjoy debating about.  Each event has great fields.  Finally, if you look at the winner of each event often that winner has been a player having a great year.

Now as I said this was an idea I was just ruminating on this morning, so I reserve the right to call this theory as junk 24 hours from now, so let me know anything wrong (or right) about these thoughts.

Bill,

If they played the Masters in the middle of August, no one would even show up.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2009, 07:24:39 AM »
5th = US Amateur
6th = British Amateur
Kevin, I'm always amused when golfing traditionalists try to suggest that modern amateur championships are at such a level.  They simply aren't - how many players players in last year's US or British Amateur would be amongst the top 100 players in the world?

They mattered in Bobby Jones' day, because there were fantastic players who never turned professional.  The amateur championships had good fields.  Now any kid who can get the ball airborne is a pro by 23.

I think it has to do with money.  Bobby Jones probably made a much better living lawyering then golfing.  Now its not even close.  Before Arnold Parner and the explosion of the PGA, it was a tough decision to give up your regular career to play golf.  Therefore, you had a lot of amateurs just as good as most of the players on tour.  Those days are over and although anyone would rather win the US or British Amateur instead of the Frys.com Open, comparing them is apples to oranges.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2009, 09:21:49 AM »
Garland,

With all due respect, The Masters could be held on Christmas Day, played with hickory shafted clubs and it would still be the most anticipated, attended, watched and special Major.   :) 

Mark

Jim Sweeney

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Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2009, 10:15:20 AM »
Agree with Garland that there are only three majors....but I disagree with his three. The one that does not belong is the one that is not inclusive of all golfers.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2009, 08:17:58 PM »
Clearly, based on history and heritage, it should be the Western Open.  But since there is no "Western Open" as such, and it has been so badly treated by the PGA Tour (and what has the WGA -- an otherwise great organization -- to protect its championship?), the one correct answer muct be, The Memorial.

I'm a little surpised at virtually no mention of the LA Open (aka Nissan, Northern Trust, etc.).  Before there was a "Fifth Major," before "The Players" and the ascendancy of Jack's Memorial, I think LA/Riviera was the premier "regular" tour event.  Easily one of the handful of best courses, major or not, the tour would visit in the course of a year.

Sébastien Dhaussy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The "Sixth" Major
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2009, 10:03:06 AM »
This thread reminds me an 2008 article in which several PGA tour pros were asked what non major tournament they would like to win more than any over.

After some research, here is the article : http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2008/05/gw20080502shedloski?printable=true



"It's for everyone to choose his own path to glory - or perdition" Ben CRENSHAW

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