[David Neveux]

Here is the link to the article on Golf Digest's website.  Thought some might like to give it a read.  Thoughts? 

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/2009/04/garyplayer?currentPage=1

[David Stamm]

I can't wait to see the reaction to this:


Golf architects are making courses too tough and greens too undulating. I've been around professional golf for a long time, and believe me, there's nothing more irritating to professional golfers than playing on undulating greens. If it irritates professional golfers, can you imagine how it irritates the weekend golfer?

When a golf architect has to make undulating greens to make it a test, he's a poor architect. Anyone can make a 6,000-yard course tough if you put in undulating greens. But it takes a special architect to make a course where your greens are soft and friendly and yet it's still a good test. That's what we like to try to do. The world is running out of water rapidly. I mean, rapidly! California is on its way to being a desert. Arizona, Texas, all of these places has severe problems with water. I try to do golf courses that don't have high costs. That's why golf is in such a poor state at the moment. Golf courses are so long, and the costs have gone up according to oil, water, machinery, manpower, and we've priced ourselves out of the business.

We've got to start building courses that are more playable, not as long, more friendly, and also more beautiful, because the average man is full of stress. He comes out to play golf. If you can make it beautiful and enjoyable, it does something for his soul.

[Anthony Fowler]

David, there are so many contradictions in that passage, I thought you might have spliced different sentences together from different parts of the interview.  Nope!  He actually said all of that in a continuous breath.

I'd like to see his golf course that is 6,000 yard with flat greens that is still interesting, challenging, beautiful (since the architect doesn't have much control over the surrounds he must mean green), but uses little water, oil, labor, etc.

I know we've had this conversation before, but since when are golfers not supposed to be challenged on and around the greens? Maybe we should just stick to the driving range.

[Jim Nugent]

Gary also said a while ago that Nicklaus is the best golf course designer now -- " Because he was a hacker, believe it or not, at one stage in his life. Then he became a reasonable player, then a better player, then the best player in the world.

"So he could look at a golf course from all different angles, whereas no other golf architect who's a 15 handicap can ever possibly do that. All of the players who are designing now have that background. I think it's great that they are all getting into it. Golf is the winner here."

What are Player's courses like?  Any outstanding ones? 

[Chuck Brown]

He just likes to hear himself talk, right?  That's the only possible explanation. 
I know that there is much to admire about Gary Player.  Unfortunately, it does not extend to his commentary on golf course architecture.

[Chuck Brown]

From the Black Knight's website:

"Gary Player is a true icon in all of sport and is widely considered the greatest international golfer of all time. Our clients gain a competitive edge by building a story around his place in the history of the game and associating themselves with his brand and image.

Gary Player Design is in large part a marketing company built around the reputation of Gary Player the man. The recognition, media exposure, and credibility our brands deliver work in tandem with the quality and detail of our Technical Services. The bottom line is the bottom line, and the added value our services deliver make a significant difference to financial return of projects with which we are associated.

Our company offers three different design brands: Gary Player Signature Design, Player Design, and Black Knight Design. The marketing advantages of each of these brands vary according to the personal participation of Gary Player, as well as the access to different levels of intellectual property.

Gary Player Design separates itself by offering experienced personnel who can deliver value added marketing services, including Planning Gary Player Site Visits and Grand Openings, Media Relations, Co-branded Apparel, Gary Player Memorabilia, and Golf Course Animations. Further, our clients benefit greatly from exposure in our corporate communications vehicles, namely the quarterly PLAYER Magazine and the monthly Player e-News."

[Philip Gawith]

I can't wait to see the reaction to this:


Golf architects are making courses too tough .......... I try to do golf courses that don't have high costs. That's why golf is in such a poor state at the moment. Golf courses are so long, and the costs have gone up according to oil, water, machinery, manpower, and we've priced ourselves out of the business.

We've got to start building courses that are more playable, not as long, more friendly, and also more beautiful, because the average man is full of stress. He comes out to play golf. If you can make it beautiful and enjoyable, it does something for his soul.

For various not very noble reasons, Gary is many people's favourite punch-bag. Maybe not everything in his statement is so smart, but it seems to me that the excerpted content above echoes what many "right thinking" GCAers believe. More playable, beautiful, enjoyable - is that so bad?

[Richard Choi]

I have to agree with Anthony. Player's comments are so full of contradictions that I don't know how ANYONE can take it seriously.

He worries about using too much water and he doesn't want to create too many bunkers because of maintenance costs, but he wants to make it beautiful.

How the heck does one dress up a golf course without using bunkers or plants which takes a lot of water to maintain? How do you keep greens "soft and friendly" without over-watering them?

And he has NO CLUE how an average golf thinks about a course. If you have a course that has a wide fairway but tough greens, the average players are going to benefit. There is a MUCH better chance that an average hacker will 2 putt 40 feet away on an undulating green than trying to land a driver between bunkers 25 yards apart.

[Kenny Baer]

I like how Gary Player walks up to people he doesn't know and insults them.  I decided I was going to start doing that but I ended up with 2 black eyes.

GP has done a tremendous amount for the game of golf but I find it pretty funny that he thinks it is okay to walk up to a kid and tell him that he is overweight; no matter how nicely he puts it.

Celebrities/Pro Athletes surround themselves by people that only kiss their ass; how out of touch with reality can you get that you think you can insult people to their face.

From that article I got the feeling that GP knows nothing about GCA; he was not making any sense.  "Golfers hate undulating greens" I don't get it.

[David Stamm]

Gary also said a while ago that Nicklaus is the best golf course designer now -- " Because he was a hacker, believe it or not, at one stage in his life. Then he became a reasonable player, then a better player, then the best player in the world.

"So he could look at a golf course from all different angles, whereas no other golf architect who's a 15 handicap can ever possibly do that. All of the players who are designing now have that background. I think it's great that they are all getting into it. Golf is the winner here."

 

I find this hysterical considering he was asked his favorite course and said CPC. I wonder if Player knows what kind of player MacK was...

[JLahrman]

Something tells me this site is about to get a new antihero.

[Sean_A]

I can't wait to see the reaction to this:


Golf architects are making courses too tough .......... I try to do golf courses that don't have high costs. That's why golf is in such a poor state at the moment. Golf courses are so long, and the costs have gone up according to oil, water, machinery, manpower, and we've priced ourselves out of the business.

We've got to start building courses that are more playable, not as long, more friendly, and also more beautiful, because the average man is full of stress. He comes out to play golf. If you can make it beautiful and enjoyable, it does something for his soul.

For various not very noble reasons, Gary is many people's favourite punch-bag. Maybe not everything in his statement is so smart, but it seems to me that the excerpted content above echoes what many "right thinking" GCAers believe. More playable, beautiful, enjoyable - is that so bad?

Philip

I can't see whats wrong with his comments.  Sometimes folks just get bees in their bonnets over not much.  Now lets talk about how course have too many bunkers....

Ciao  

[Adrian_Stiff]

Gary was blessed with a gob he never knows when to shut, he has been the same irrating **** since 1954. He was a great golfer and is still outstanding for 72 years of age and probably would still be +1 handicap. On his side his attack is against tricking up the greens, to some degree he is right there is a 'fat' percentage that think greens should reward putts when you hit them. Golf should be fun and missing putts piss people off, remember a lot on this forum is very brown-nosed to one direction.

[JLahrman]

On his side his attack is against tricking up the greens, to some degree he is right there is a 'fat' percentage that think greens should reward putts when you hit them. Golf should be fun and missing putts piss people off, remember a lot on this forum is very brown-nosed to one direction.

I agree to a certain point.  If the idea is to make golf more fun and playable, and there is a case for that, then courses need to be less penal, shorter, and have flatter greens.

But the idea that undulating greens should be discouraged because some players find them 'irritating' is off-base.  Putting and imagination should be an important part of the game.  The idea that a course can be made more difficult by lengthening it, but that making tougher more undulating greens is tricking up the course is puzzling to me.  Undulating greens create a fun type of difficulty.  I also am a supporter of golf becoming more environmentally sensitive, but if Gary Player is the self-proclaimed most travelled man in the world, then he's personally left quite a carbon footprint.

[Chuck Brown]

Hey!  I just thought of what to tell Gary about his opinions on golf course architecture; "Go ask Mr. Dunlop..."





 

[Dean Stokes]

I don't often agree with what GP says but on the undulating greens issue I think he is onto something.

I have played many 'newly' designed courses in the past five or six years that fall right into this category. They are not much at all tee to green then "watch out".

First there are far too many interior contours, too severe slopes and not nearly enough pin positions to justify the size of the green.

Add to that a stimp reading of something in the teens and you just end up with tricked up golf courses that the masses cannot handle.

Wouldn't it be far more pleasurable and testing to have to hit two good/accurate shots into a par four and have a chance to make birdie instead of hitting a drive anywhere, followed by an average iron shot to the middle of the green and not even nearly be able to two putt due to the above mentioned reasons.

Maybe I just have not seen enough courses but I have to agree with Player on this one.

Make the course more testing tee to green and just have gently rolling greens. Please.

[JLahrman]

First there are far too many interior contours, too severe slopes and not nearly enough pin positions to justify the size of the green.

Add to that a stimp reading of something in the teens and you just end up with tricked up golf courses that the masses cannot handle.

Wouldn't it be far more pleasurable and testing to have to hit two good/accurate shots into a par four and have a chance to make birdie instead of hitting a drive anywhere, followed by an average iron shot to the middle of the green and not even nearly be able to two putt due to the above mentioned reasons.e course more testing tee to green and just have gently rolling greens. Please.

A couple of points Dean:

- I don't think anyone is advocating for randomly incorporating undulations into the greens.  They should be puttable and be able to handle pin positions.  Badly placed or excessive undulation makes about as much sense as badly placed or excessive bunkering.

- Nobody is saying to take the challenge out of the tee to green game either.  I just don't think you can say that making a hole long and challenging from tee to green is creating a worthwhile challenge but adding undulation to the green is irritatingly tricking up the course.   If you want an easy course, make it shorter, less penal, with flat greens.  But if you want to make a course more difficult, undulating greens should be part of the equation.

[Bob_Huntley]

Gary is right on the severity of slope on many greens. Even at courses within  the Del Monte Forest, we have moderate sized greeens with fewer than three or four places for a hole. Get above the hole and it is like putting on a ski slope.

I haven't played Harbor Town in over thirty years but I always thought the greens were flat and delightful to putt on, as it would appear, did Brian Gay.

Bob

[Dean Stokes]

First there are far too many interior contours, too severe slopes and not nearly enough pin positions to justify the size of the green.

Add to that a stimp reading of something in the teens and you just end up with tricked up golf courses that the masses cannot handle.

Wouldn't it be far more pleasurable and testing to have to hit two good/accurate shots into a par four and have a chance to make birdie instead of hitting a drive anywhere, followed by an average iron shot to the middle of the green and not even nearly be able to two putt due to the above mentioned reasons.e course more testing tee to green and just have gently rolling greens. Please.

A couple of points Dean:

- I don't think anyone is advocating for randomly incorporating undulations into the greens.  They should be puttable and be able to handle pin positions.  Badly placed or excessive undulation makes about as much sense as badly placed or excessive bunkering.

- Nobody is saying to take the challenge out of the tee to green game either.  I just don't think you can say that making a hole long and challenging from tee to green is creating a worthwhile challenge but adding undulation to the green is irritatingly tricking up the course.   If you want an easy course, make it shorter, less penal, with flat greens.  But if you want to make a course more difficult, undulating greens should be part of the equation.

Thank you for the reply JAL. I understand nobody is "advocating for randomly incorporating undulations into greens" - the unfortunate situation that is arising, especially it seems on more modern courses, is the use of excessive undulations on greens.
Many greens that I have played in recent years are not puttable and cannot handle varied pin positions; especially at the speeds most golf club members and supers seem to think should be the norm.

As for the length of holes to make them challenging, I am trying to find where I said the hole should be "long"? How about short to mid length with angles, bunkers, streams and smaller greens with more contours around the greens rather than on them.

Two good shots deserves a putt at birdie not a 'wish and a prayer' that you can lag it over the nasty slope in front of you and cosy it down so that you can hopefully make your par.

That's all I'm saying.

[Kyle Harris]

A severe undulating green can place a large demand on a so-called blase tee to green golf course.

Having had the luck of playing several holes where the fairways exceeded 40 yards in width but the green would only accept an approach from a 10 yard sliver of that fairway, I think Gary just isn't terribly creative when it comes to designing thought-inducing golf.

[Dean Stokes]

A severe undulating green can place a large demand on a so-called blase tee to green golf course.

Having had the luck of playing several holes where the fairways exceeded 40 yards in width but the green would only accept an approach from a 10 yard sliver of that fairway, I think Gary just isn't terribly creative when it comes to designing thought-inducing golf.

could you give us a few examples Kyle.

[Jim Nugent]

For various not very noble reasons, Gary is many people's favourite punch-bag.

He's not my favorite punching bag.  I think his comment about Nicklaus as the greatest golf designer is absurd, though.  Jack might have been a hacker for about two days, when he was 10 years old. 

What are the not noble reasons?   

[Craig Sweet]

Undulating greens are fun if you're playing the course everyday...but if it's a one time thing, and you won't be back to that course for awhile...if ever...I think they can suck....

[Bill Shamleffer]

Hey!  I just thought of what to tell Gary about his opinions on golf course architecture; "Go ask Mr. Dunlop..."





 

Mr. Hogan wishes to say "I resemble that comment."

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