[Sean_A]

I went to Burnham for the monthly medal today.  It was a decent day weather-wise, maybe 50 Farenheit with a 12-15 mph wind out of the north-west (a coldish wind).  This is not at all a strong wind for Burnham.  The medal tees play about 6600 yards (they are not moved forward for winter play), a modest length, but considerably longer (for some reason) than the daily tees of about 6300 yards.  The course is often described as tough even without wind.  For those that don't know Burnham I would say its about as tough as Dornoch.  Today the standard scratch was 75.  Granted this a fairly high number for any course, but not terribly unusual in winter conditions on a links of moderate length.  I am by no means a long hitter, but I am not short either.  I found myself hitting wood approaches on 15 holes (including the par 3s as approaches) where normally I would hit half that many wood approaches.  I didn't meet one person after the game who said the day was really fun.  "Hard work" was the oft stated reply.  Given how I have described the day, why is it we are building courses even as a long as 6600 yards?  Considering how few courses are actually used for topish amateur events, who are we building these courses for? 

Just so folks don't think I am grouisng, I played alright today - gross 83 (off 10) with a triple and double.  The triple pissed me off because I didn't bother to take a good look at my blind recovery chip and actually chipped my ball into a terrible position OFF THE GREEN - Doh!

One thing a day like today makes me realize is that back in the day when Tillie and Flynn were designing, the courses must have played monstrously long in the shoulder seasons!

Ciao

[TEPaul]

"The medal tees play about 6600 yards (they are not moved forward for winter play), a modest length, but considerably longer (for some reason) than the daily tees of about 6300 yards. 

One thing a day like today makes me realize is that back in the day when Tillie and Flynn were designing, the courses must have played monstrously long in the shoulder seasons!"


Sean Arble:

6,600 yds is pretty long for most golfers in either winter temperatures or softish conditions. Architects back then like Tillie and Flynn believed in and recommended shifting tee markers substantially to accommodate the vast differences in playability of various seasons, course and weather conditions etc.

The reason you seem to feel this and perhaps post this thread is because of this "Medal Day" thing you people over there do for handicap purposes where you seem traditionally fixated on playing those medal day handicap rounds from the tips for everyone.

Matter of fact, over here in most of the northern states we can't even post scores for handicap purposes in the winter months---eg the handicap posting system is shut down.

[Dan Moore]

So how long do you think St Andrew's played in 1821 when it was around 6,300 yards.  Of course, since they almost exclusively played match play, distance (or difficulty as measured against par) was not an issue since all that mattered was beating your opponent. 

[J_ Crisham]

Sean,  This past August I played  Merion for the 1st time from 6200 yds. When we finished I would have thought that the course played at 6600 yds. The scorecard length can be very misleading at times. I also had the same feeling when playing last year at Harbour Town. Some courses are just sneaky long!                Jack

[Pete Lavallee]

Matter of fact, over here in most of the northern states we can't even post scores for handicap purposes in the winter months---eg the handicap posting system is shut down.

TE Paul,

Just another reason why our handicap system sucks; they average the field scores and adjust; allowing handicap scores in competition to be posted year round. Notice he said the standard scatch score for the day was 75; I suspect in decent weather the SSS, or the equivilant to the course rating, would be closer to a par score of 72. When will we learn to have an equitable sytem based on competion perfomance?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pete,
We could have such a system, and it would be much easier to compute handicaps for the 12 people who would still carry one. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I think you will find that there are many courses being constructed under 6000 yards it is just such courses do not get any press coverage outside the local press.

[Sean_A]

"The medal tees play about 6600 yards (they are not moved forward for winter play), a modest length, but considerably longer (for some reason) than the daily tees of about 6300 yards. 

One thing a day like today makes me realize is that back in the day when Tillie and Flynn were designing, the courses must have played monstrously long in the shoulder seasons!"


Sean Arble:

6,600 yds is pretty long for most golfers in either winter temperatures or softish conditions. Architects back then like Tillie and Flynn believed in and recommended shifting tee markers substantially to accommodate the vast differences in playability of various seasons, course and weather conditions etc.

The reason you seem to feel this and perhaps post this thread is because of this "Medal Day" thing you people over there do for handicap purposes where you seem traditionally fixated on playing those medal day handicap rounds from the tips for everyone.

Matter of fact, over here in most of the northern states we can't even post scores for handicap purposes in the winter months---eg the handicap posting system is shut down.

Tom

The medal tees aren't the tips and this is likely the case for nearly all championship courses in the UK.  The tips are about 6850 yards, which as I am sure you can appreciate is short for the best amateurs. However, I think those tees are only used for one club comp and for the few top amateur and local pro stuff that Burnham hosts every year.  I spose the difference in the quality of the really good amateurs and the useful club golfers is really highlighted once the tees start to get stretched back.  Do folks think this gap is ever widening to the point of there being little common ground between the two "camps"? 

Jon

Where are these sub 6000 yarders being built?  I can't say I have ever come across new ones, only old courses that didn'tkeep up with the times for whatever reason.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

here in snowy Switzerland quite a few of the new courses a less than 6000 yards. Though it is not easy to find information on them as I stated in my last post I would be suprised if this were not the case in th UK as well.

Aylesbury Park, Billingbear Park, Bromsgrove Golf Centre and Drayton Park were done by Hawtree in the last 20 and I would have thought other GCAs were about the same.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

here in snowy Switzerland quite a few of the new courses a less than 6000 yards. Though it is not easy to find information on them as I stated in my last post I would be suprised if this were not the case in th UK as well.

Aylesbury Park, Billingbear Park, Bromsgrove Golf Centre and Drayton Park were done by Hawtree in the last 20 and I would have thought other GCAs were about the same.

Ok Jon, you got me there.  To be honest, I was thinking of courses of a higher standard of quality.  Bromsgrove and Aylesbury are not exactly the sort of places I would seek out to play or recommend to anybody- even though I have played them! 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Well done, Sean.  That must be you cut back down to a 9.  Still a few strokes too high, but going in the right direction....

As for your report, shirley you exaggerate?  A man of your length shouldn't need 7-8 wooden approaches on a normal day nor 15 on a day with a 12-15 mph wind.  I can't hit he ball as far as you off the tee and from the 6600 yard tees on your similar course (Dornoch) there are only 2-3 holes (from 7, 9 and 12) that I will need a "wooden" club approach for my 2nd shot if I hit my drive on the proper line.  Maybe 3-4 others (from 4, 11, 14, 18) if I push my tee shot high right.  Certainly on a day where I score as well as you did yesterday I'd hardly use my fairway metals.  Are you carrying a 7-wood?  A 9-wood?

Slainte

Rich

[jeffwarne]

I went to Burnham for the monthly medal today.  It was a decent day weather-wise, maybe 50 Farenheit with a 12-15 mph wind out of the north-west (a coldish wind).  This is not at all a strong wind for Burnham.  The medal tees play about 6600 yards (they are not moved forward for winter play), a modest length, but considerably longer (for some reason) than the daily tees of about 6300 yards.  The course is often described as tough even without wind.  For those that don't know Burnham I would say its about as tough as Dornoch.  Today the standard scratch was 75.  Granted this a fairly high number for any course, but not terribly unusual in winter conditions on a links of moderate length.  I am by no means a long hitter, but I am not short either.  I found myself hitting wood approaches on 15 holes (including the par 3s as approaches) where normally I would hit half that many wood approaches.  I didn't meet one person after the game who said the day was really fun.  "Hard work" was the oft stated reply.  Given how I have described the day, why is it we are building courses even as a long as 6600 yards?  Considering how few courses are actually used for topish amateur events, who are we building these courses for? 

Just so folks don't think I am grouisng, I played alright today - gross 83 (off 10) with a triple and double.  The triple pissed me off because I didn't bother to take a good look at my blind recovery chip and actually chipped my ball into a terrible position OFF THE GREEN - Doh!

One thing a day like today makes me realize is that back in the day when Tillie and Flynn were designing, the courses must have played monstrously long in the shoulder seasons!

Ciao

sean,
Good to hear you're getting the distance back in your chipping
That lesson must've helped.

If the setup's too long for shoulder conditions, sounds like the members need to have it adjusted.

the courses of Tillie's day surely did play long I'm sure-the pros of thoses days actually had wooden and long iron approaches (and didn't need 5 wedges)
Modern courses of 7500-8000 + yards would be needed to provide similar tests for scratch players and pros, but frankly are a waste of space and money.
As you said the gap is getting wider, to the point of impracticality.
Most players struggle to reach ANY green in regulation and could play 5500-6500 courses with never a complaint, but ego and false hope by developers that they'll get a Major one day or be perceived as not "Championship" cause them to at least add "way back tees"

Yet another reason for a rollback

[Sean_A]

Well done, Sean.  That must be you cut back down to a 9.  Still a few strokes too high, but going in the right direction....

As for your report, shirley you exaggerate?  A man of your length shouldn't need 7-8 wooden approaches on a normal day nor 15 on a day with a 12-15 mph wind.  I can't hit he ball as far as you off the tee and from the 6600 yard tees on your similar course (Dornoch) there are only 2-3 holes (from 7, 9 and 12) that I will need a "wooden" club approach for my 2nd shot if I hit my drive on the proper line.  Maybe 3-4 others (from 4, 11, 14, 18) if I push my tee shot high right.  Certainly on a day where I score as well as you did yesterday I'd hardly use my fairway metals.  Are you carrying a 7-wood?  A 9-wood?

Slainte

Rich

Rich

Maybe the wind was a bit stronger, but I don't know how to check that - though it would be interesting to do just to compare what I "felt" the wind was as compared to what it really was.  Does anybody know a site which stores the weather data?   

Coming from the NW rather than from the SW (the direction I think the course is really designed for) definitely makes the course play longer in winter because the wind is against or left to right going out and right to left coming back - never very helpful.   Even so, often times #s 2, 4 (par 5), 6, 7, 8 (par 5), 11, 12, 13 (par 5), 14 (par 3), 15, 17 (par 3) & 18 all can require some lumber from the fairway in the winter if one is back on the whites.  Plus, I think the extra 300 yards from the daily tees (we play all the Stablefords from these tees) really makes a huge difference in winter.  All this said, are folks in the UK finding the wind patterns just aren't nearly as reliable as they once were?  It seems we often have northerly wind these days and its a serious killer when the northeasterly blows.  I just know the course will be a nightmare on these days. 

Yes, I do carry a 7 wood and 2i hybrid and no irons below a 5.  Of course I didn't hit every drive well, especially on the front with the much more difficult (for me anyway) left to right wind, but none were awful.  I can't think of any holes where I would have gone down to 5 iron if I hot the drive better.  This is why I raised the subject.  I was really surprised by how many times I used lumber because its very unusual for me.  Many a time a don't have to use any fairway lumber except for par 5s. 

I don't really know the story about handicap cuts, but I was on the cusp of 9 and I might be cut.  Not a clever time to be cut when the finals of the winter 4somes knockout is two weeks away! 

Jeff

Now I just need lessons on making sure I have the correct target lined up before chipping!  In all seriousness, chipping is slowly getting better - its more a mental thing as anything else.  Though now I have devloped this nasty habit of not staying down on the runners so they scoot a bit more rapidly then I would general like.

Ciao

[Jamie Barber]

It's a fair point. Scott Warren and I played at Prince's today. We played off the medal tees - but they were some way forward of the correct positions (which the card lists as 6880 yds for Shore\Dunes). I was hitting 5i, 4i, 3i and rescue on plenty of the par4s. From the tips it's 7275, basically it would make it a beyond a slog for the club golfer.

It does make you appreciate the skill of the pre war golfers. Sarazen won in '32 with (I assume) something like a Haskell ball and hickory clubs, with the course just under 7000 yds and score was around level par I believe.

[Brent Hutto]

It does make you appreciate the skill of the pre war golfers. Sarazen won in '32 with (I assume) something like a Haskell ball and hickory clubs, with the course just under 7000 yds and score was around level par I believe.

Yes, but that was back when nobody had to ask "Are We Not Men?".

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Sean,

For wind, check www.windguru.com. Quite reliable and very detailed.

Regards,

[Philippe Binette]

There's length and perception of length...

the weather condtion can do its part...
Crystal Downs is barely 6500 yards par 70 but doesn't feel that way because of the variety of length of the par 4s and the number of par 3s...

18 holes of 365 yards would feel and play really short... but it would be 6570 yards total

[Sean_A]

There's length and perception of length...

the weather condtion can do its part...
Crystal Downs is barely 6500 yards par 70 but doesn't feel that way because of the variety of length of the par 4s and the number of par 3s...

18 holes of 365 yards would feel and play really short... but it would be 6570 yards total

Philippe

I can appreciate how weather conditions and terrain can dramatically influence the playing length of a hole.  I spose as much as anything, I am trying to highlight the inherent problems with the traditional out and back design.  When the wind switches from the designed for direction then all hell can break loose and not just because of the wind.  The narrowness of the land itself is exposed for its weakness in enabling the game to be played in a reasonable (read fun) fashion.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

here in snowy Switzerland quite a few of the new courses a less than 6000 yards. Though it is not easy to find information on them as I stated in my last post I would be suprised if this were not the case in th UK as well.

Aylesbury Park, Billingbear Park, Bromsgrove Golf Centre and Drayton Park were done by Hawtree in the last 20 and I would have thought other GCAs were about the same.

Ok Jon, you got me there.  To be honest, I was thinking of courses of a higher standard of quality.  Bromsgrove and Aylesbury are not exactly the sort of places I would seek out to play or recommend to anybody- even though I have played them! 

Ciao

Sean,

I also am at a loss to explain it. You would think that such a course would be successful as a pay and play. Well, maybe that may change soon, who knows!!!

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