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Chris_Clouser

Austin CC write-up
« on: February 19, 2009, 08:54:30 PM »
Ran across this write-up by Jay Flemma about Austin CC.  I don't know much about the current course.  How does it compare to the Maxwell course that is now Riverside?

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=1325
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Ed Oden

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 10:03:23 PM »
Quote from: Chris_Clouser on February 19, 2009, 08:54:30 PM
How does it compare to the Maxwell course that is now Riverside?

They are night and day.  The sites are totally different.  The styles are totally different.  So much so that its really almost impossible to compare them. 

While I like ACC and think it is a solid course, I believe Jay overreaches a bit in his review.  I don't know anyone who would argue it is "the best private course in Texas."

Ed
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 10:14:35 PM by Ed Oden »
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John Handley

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 10:08:51 PM »
I have played ACC many times and think it is a very solid golf course.  I would not say it is the best private club in Texas let alone Austin.
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Trey Kemp

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 10:30:18 PM »
I have played ACC a number of times and I agree with the other posts.  The course does not resemble a Maxwell course at all.  It is a very good course in my opinion, but I would not rank it as the best Private course in Texas or Austin.  Whatever the case it is a good test of golf and worth playing if you are in the area. 

I have also played Riverside a number of times and it is a shame that they put an Austin Community College Campus on part of the course.  It is a fun little course that I wish could be renovated and taken better care of.  Anyway here are a few pictures of ACC, as you will see its all Dye and no Maxwell.







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Lou_Duran

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2009, 11:33:00 AM »
It is understandable why Trump says and maybe believes that his are the finest buildings and golf courses.  I fully expect Nicklaus and Fazio to be highly effusive with praise for the ultra-expensive courses they build for their clients.

I don't know Jay and I certainly don't want to make this personal, but what would possess someone with no apparent stake to suggest that a course with the obvious limitations of ACC can be considered as the best in Texas?  I've played nearly all of the top courses in Texas and there are many private and public courses that are "better".

Or maybe this last facelift has been so successful that it has lifted ACC to the top?  It has been a few years since I've played the course.  I've spoken to some members and a few active golfers in the area (before the redo) and the word was that the membership loved the club but not the course.  I thought this was odd, but I've never been a part of a club with a rich history and a beautiful, bucolic setting.   
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2009, 12:18:12 PM »
Everybody's entitled to their opinion, right?
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2009, 12:46:41 PM »
Yes Bill.  And some are better than others!  ;)  For example, you can believe that Barton's C & C is the superior course of the four even though it is the least played by a fairly good margin, year after year.  Popular opinions being only important to critics in politics, others may have a less "refined" opinion or taste.  But if you opine that the C & C course is "arguably" the best in TX, you might very well get that argument plus a little more.  BTW, have you played ACC?  I would be extremely surprised that you would think that highly of it.
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Ron Farris

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2009, 01:00:41 PM »
I went from The Long Cove Club to Austin CC while working on Dye courses.
Talk about night and day.  Everything at ACC was bold and off the chart, but that was in the 80's.
Long Cove was pretty mellow as Dye had been criticized heavily for Sawgrass and tamed things down.

Keith Sparkman, later Pete Dye's green building guru, was there but mostly did irrigation.  Great guy.
John Reidinger was there, fresh out of college.  He went off to conquer California.
And Greg Muirhead was there.  I believe he is still working with the Open Dr. Rees Jones.
We lived on site during construction and it was quite an experience.  We were still in the house when the excuvator showed up to tear it down - we had to take the afternoon off to find a place to live.

Rod Whitman was the project manager at ACC after working with Bill Coore at Waterwood National.  As turf students we were not really involved in the rough shaping of the course. However, I flipped a bulldozer on its side on Hole #2 and probably shouldn't be alive today as it was after hours and nobody was around.  I was trying to get something corrected that Pete wanted before the sod trucks came in the next day to grass the hole.  

Having come from Long Cove I never really felt comfortable at ACC as everything we did was so bold compared to LCC.

One of my best experiences at Austin was a return visit with a group of Japanese.  Harvey Pennick sat in a golf cart on the first tee and watched everyone tee off.  Talking with him was like talking to Moses.  I felt like the bible was being read to me out loud.  Simple-straight forward - and logical if you simply apply it to real life!  At the time I didn't even know who he was.  I thought he was the ranger for the course or just a retired guy helping out.  Later his books came out.  He made a comment how some Asian girls were going to impact the LPGA Tour.  That was in the early 1980's! Wow!
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2009, 02:28:33 PM »
Interesting memories, Ron.  Thanks for passing them on.
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2009, 02:36:30 PM »
Ron,

Long Cove is one if not my favorite Dye courses.  I don't think highly of ACC.  Boldness might be a good way to describe it.  I would say it is/was penal for its own sake.
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Nicholas Coppolo

Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2009, 04:34:09 PM »
Preston Trail?  Colonial? AGC? Northwood? Oak Hills? Royal Oaks? DNational? Oak Tree? The Hills? Champions? DCC? Brook Hollow?

This Flemma is either an idiot  who does no research or is extremely mislead.  Anyone who plays golf in Texas, whether in the business or not, knows where ACC and its course stands in terms of private golf clubs in the state. 

I've spent years on that course and love it like home, but I wouldn't rank it in the top 25 in the State, including some public courses.

And the comparisons to holes at Sawgrass are asinine, there is more elevation on the 3rd at ACC than the entire Sawgrass property.... possibly the state of Florida.

And there are no trees or doglegs on any of the holes at ACC that mandate laying back or working the ball with driver like Sawgrass.

ACC is a relic of the '80s and interesting solely as a study of how to force players and architecture at the same time. 



« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 10:17:24 PM by Nicholas Coppolo »
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2009, 08:20:19 PM »
Nicholas,

You don't even mention Whispering Pines, Dallas National, Escondido, Briggs Ranch, Boot Ranch, Austin GC, Spanish Oaks, the two courses at Carlton Oaks on and Nuzzo's Wolf Point on the private side that are far superior.  Frisco Lakes, a new public course by Gary Stephenson is much more enjoyable if not better.

As to Mr. Flemma, he is anything but an idiot.  In his defense, as he pointed out to me by E-Mail, his article states that SOME believe it is ARGUABLY the best course in Texas.  Jay's effusive praise of the course seems much overdone, but as Bill McBride notes, he is entitled to his opinion.

For the record, I am not a fan of torturous golf.  ACC, Horseshoe Bay's Ram Rock course, the Cliffs at Possum Kingdom, and the original Waterwood National were all in this genre and though SOME thought highly of them, none of them got much play.  Personally, I have a hard time putting ACC in my TX top 50, though it probably belongs there toward the end of the list.  And as I said earlier, I've not played it since the last facelift so perhaps my impressions are no longer accurate.   
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Nicholas Coppolo

Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2009, 09:53:50 PM »
Lou,
  He sent me an email as well, he went afterwards and changed the blog to include the words "by some" which it didn't state in the original post.  Like I said, he either did no research or was misinformed.  I'll give him the benefit of doubt and assume he was misinformed.

That's just one of the inaccuracies..."Many of Texas’s most celebrated courses are in the region"?  I guess we would have to define "celebrated"  to qualify that.

Dye created a "masterpiece"?  .......are you kidding? 

"That would take advantage of some of the most arresting and diverse terrain found anywhere in the state" :   
-----Take advantage? With the exception of the man-made lakeside holes, ACC and most of the hill   country occupies the least golf conducive topography in the entire state.

"Anyone could have laid out a devastatingly penal golf course."
------ACC is devastatingly penal.  Now that I live in NY and play the Black regularly, I would say that ACC is MORE penal.  If you miss on the Black, you're in the rough, if you miss at ACC on 13 holes your wet, lost or OB......

Then he goes on with the comparisons to Sawgrass?

It's just silly.

Your impressions remain accurate.  I completely agree with you in ranking ACC among the landscape of Texas golf.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 10:04:35 PM by Nicholas Coppolo »
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Ed Oden

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2009, 10:29:26 PM »
Quote from: Lou_Duran on February 20, 2009, 08:20:19 PM
For the record, I am not a fan of torturous golf.  ACC, Horseshoe Bay's Ram Rock course, the Cliffs at Possum Kingdom, and the original Waterwood National were all in this genre and though SOME thought highly of them, none of them got much play. 

Lou, interesting comparison of ACC to Ram Rock, Possom Kingom and Waterwood.  No doubt they are all tough tests.  But I suspect that the location of these other courses has just as much to do with any lack of play as their difficulty.  For what its worth, I think Ram Rock works nicely as a stern compliment to the other Horseshoe Bay courses.

Ed
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Neil_Crafter

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2009, 10:32:33 PM »
Thanks for sharing those memories Ron

Neil
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2009, 11:46:05 PM »
Nicholas,

I normally don't react as I did to the article if the claims are qualified, and I certainly don't remember reading the all-important "SOME" in the first reading.  Your comments about Hill Country topography are right on.  Add to that the rocky soil and all the environmental stuff, and building a world-class course is very difficult.

I've played the Black and loved it.  It is very demanding, but you can generally keep playing.  It didn't beat me up and I generally felt I had a fighting chance without having to hit every shot like a Tour pro.  I didn't feel that way about Winged Foot-West, a course that is relentless and unforgiving though not as penal in terms of lost balls.  I also liked the Red quite a bit.  Too bad one has to put up with the circus to play there (Bethpage).

Ed,

You might be right, but I've played Ram Rock when it was nearly deserted while the adjoining Applerock was pretty busy and Slick Rock was packed.  All the four courses noted are beautiful as far as TX courses go, but I don't think that they're very popular.

Have you played Escondido?  I came away after my single play thinking that it could very well be Texas's best.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2009, 12:37:37 AM »
Quote from: Lou_Duran on February 20, 2009, 12:46:41 PM
Yes Bill.  And some are better than others!  ;)  For example, you can believe that Barton's C & C is the superior course of the four even though it is the least played by a fairly good margin, year after year.  Popular opinions being only important to critics in politics, others may have a less "refined" opinion or taste.  But if you opine that the C & C course is "arguably" the best in TX, you might very well get that argument plus a little more.  BTW, have you played ACC?  I would be extremely surprised that you would think that highly of it.

Lou, I'm a bit confused by the above.  I have never played ACC so could hardly be someone arguing that it's the best in Texas.   With regard to the C&C course at Barton Creek, I think it has the best greens complexes and is most fun to play, so it's my favorite there.  I could care less who plays which courses the most, as I too am entitled to my opinion!   I doubt the Palmer course associated with Barton Creek but 20 miles away gets as much play as the C&C course.  The two Fazios are okay, with the Canyons less manufactured to my eye.
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Ed Oden

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Re: Austin CC write-up
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2009, 12:44:18 AM »
Lou, I left Texas before all the new offerings came on the scene.  So I haven't yet had the good fortune to play Escondido, Dallas National, et al.  Hopefully I will get back one day to see them for myself.

Ed
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