Barona vs Apache Stronghold

[Dan_Belden]

Jack:

    The course was built in 23 or 21, I can't remeber off hand, shame on me, and was designed by Donald Ross. He was on site for construction at least once, and had over 200 acres with, which to work.  
    The greens are the original set, although some have shrunk cosiderably, and they have never been regrassed.  The course originally had over a hundred bunkers, but this number was vastly reduced during the 60"s
    Currently we are proposing a restoration with the help of Brian Silva, that is to take place in Sept, of 2002.  The plans have been drawn, and the work will be significant.  I have to run right now, but I will be glad to share more when I get back.  If you are in the area, and want to play, let me know.  Dan

[Gib_Papazian]

I've played both at least twice (lots of times at Barona) and find it ridiculous to try and split hairs between these two outstanding creations.

I don't disagree with the Emperor very often, but the six up seems completely wrong.

What a pair of wonderful golf courses - both of which literally make my heart sing. In this case, comparisons are far more destructive than constructive.

To me, Barona has far fewer flaws than Apache, but Apache has some features that literally astounded me. The 5th green is one of the most shocking creations I have ever seen . . . . . we stayed out there for 20 minutes after finishing the hole just fooling around on it.

The previous post said it best in stating that Barona is a better tee shot course and Apache has better approach shots.

They are both a bulletproof "8" on the Gib list and if pressed which one I would rather be magically be transported to tommorrow morning, I would literally have to flip a coin.

Tom and Todd have different styles, just as C&C do . . . . we ought to celebrate great modern archtiecture in cases like this instead of picking it apart with tweezers.  

[Andy Levett]

The 5th green is one of the most shocking creations I have ever seen . . . . . we stayed out there for 20 minutes after finishing the hole just fooling around on it.

 

Sorry not clever, not funny but I knew play was slow over there but maybe I'm missing the point?

[Dan_Belden]

Gib:

    Completely and totally aggree with your suggestion.  More than anything else, I simply could not fathom someone saying that AS is 6 shots better than Barona.  That bothered me.  2up, 3up, no problem.  
  An interesting note for me is that growing up on the course that I did, there aren't any greens that shock me. Brookside CC, CAnton greens are severe with not only back to front slope, but all kinds of mounds and moguls, and they are tied in perfectly to the landscapes.  I think my friend Mike Emery, who also played his junior golf at Brookside, gave AS quite a compliment when he said the greens reminded him of Brookside.  Brooksides greens are so good and intere :)sting that you forget most people haven't seen anything like them. And then when they do, they are understandebly moved.  
  I am going to try and scan a few of the greens for this discussion group, as I think many would enjoy seeing them.  Dan

[Gib_Papazian]

Dan,
The  Emperor and I were arguing the point about this last  night on the phone and I think he is softening a bit.

Andy,

Nice jab. We were playing with the head professional in the late afternoon and the golf course was empty.

[Dan_Belden]

Gib:


   Just wonedering which point you and Tommy were discussing.  Dan

[Gib_Papazian]

Dan,

We were not discussing, we were squabbling. Remember, he is Italian and I'm Armenian.

It just comes down to hole by hole comparisons of the strong and weak points. Naccarato might get me to admit a 2 up victory for Doak, but the property Todd had to work with is nothing special.

In reality, Barona is just an expansive - but mostly flat - parcel that rolls up a long uphill slope. I think he made the most of it and although you can nitpick anything apart, I don't know if anyone could have done better. I'd like to see the oaks to the left of #8 cut down because they invalidate the strategy of risking the strong carry over the fairway bunker, but aside from that and the dumb green at #16, I would not change a thing.

Apache is on a really interesting piece of land and routing is one of Tom's strong points. All those little twists and turns with a surprise around every corner - just masterful really. But the bones were there to begin with.

I just wish I could figure out the right way to play the 10th hole. Everyone keeps telling me how great it is, but the double fairway doesn't seem to work in my mind . . . maybe it is the organization of the hazards and orientation of the putting surface to the line of play.

Of course, maybe I am too pea brained to understand it yet.

[Don Albert]

Dan
How long have you known Todd E and what effect might that have on your opinion?

[Gib_Papazian]

Dan,
Which Brookside? Where?

[Dan_Belden]

Gib:
    Brookside CC, Canton, Oh.     There is a small section in Klein's book on the course.  The greens have never been touched and never been regrassed.  They have shrunk obviously, but they are remarkable.  If you are in the area be glad to take you out.  We are hosting the US Senior Open qualifier on June 1Oth, A favor to Firestone since the Senior PGA is being held at Firestone, South.  The courses are only 20 minutes apart.
Don:  
     I have known Todd since we were freshman together on the Uni...of Arizona golf team.  If you read all my posts I think you would see that I have no problem with anyone saying that AS is a better golf course.  I do have a problem with someone saying As is a way better golf course.  There is no question that AS is a superior site, and is a wonderfull design. My pallet leans more for the way Barona sets up the holes of the tee.  And Todd being a  superior player to Doak, I think he understands what the expert player is looking for a little better.  I honestly think that is Doaks only weakness.  Every now and then a hole seems to be extremely difficult for anyone with a handicap of more that 5, but a little too easy for 5 or lower.  A great example is the 18th at AS.  I have hit an L wedge into the hole everytime I have played it.  But once again I am glad that we have both.   Dan

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Gib, Trust me, I am not bending one bit.

Dan, so does this mean that MacKenzie didn't know much about better players either?

I would rethink that one by simply asking Todd if that would be a correct assumption.

As a better player with implements (ridiculous ball and a ridiculous driver) that suit your game better, as a better player, yes, I guess MacKenzie, Doak***, Hanse, and many others (who don't have the talent of game as Todd does) courses don't suit your style or taste with their unique challenges from off of the tee. Personally, I think Todd does have some pretty downright interesting drives from the tee at Barona, but I also think that Todd's biggest challenge yet is that he isn't on a bulldozer, sand pro or boxblade getting his stuff exactly the way HE wants it. He is relying on communicating with shapers that more then likely don't even know of the name--MacKenzie aned its relation to golf architecture, let alone carry a low digit handicap or even golf for that matter. (Ask Todd about the tobacoo chewing, former Dallas Cowboy that was on his first golf course--Barona Creek and his efforts at the 16th hole.)

(***Lets put Pacific Dunes #1,2,3,4,6,7,9,12,13,15,16 and 18, from the tee, aside. They don't count because Tom was given a perfect parcel of land, which anyone could work with, right? Routing that golf course was a nothing deal correct?)

[Dan_Belden]

Tommy:

   Does this mean that Doak is as good as Mackenzie? I am taking your argument as meaning that Doak is every bit as talented as Mackenzie.  And MacKenzie did have at his disposal the greatest player of his era at Augusta.  
   I have talked to Todd about this subject.  I suggest you give him a call and talk to him about it as well.  
   In no way have I ever critized Doak for his routings.  They are great.  Pacific Dunes is fantastic, as is AS.  I just  went out there again.  Belive me if I didn't like the place as you seem to suggest I wouldn't play it.  
   As for equipment I am still using a 3 wood from 1994 with an x 100 shaft, and a 975D driver from about  98 or when they first came out that is only 44 inches.  Todd actually has my spare, although he told me that he recently came into possession of a new 975J.  The ProV 1 is out of hand though. It is scary how far that thing goes.  
   As for the design elements at AS, they are superb.  I absolutley love the 5th from tee to green.  The swale in the green is tied in perfectly with the surrounds on the left.  I don't think the course is perfect though. And it is driving me nuts that we are arguing about this because I know we are on the same damn side.  The 7th is not that great a hole, 18 is a way better hole from the blue tee, and the 10th and 16ht are a little strange.  
   As for Pacific Dunes, it was a great site, and you know what I still think that 4 par 3's on one nine is too many.  3 ok, 4 is  too much.  
    As for Doaks slight weakness, I think that it exists.  Crenshaw and Corre(sp) do get it.  I know Doak will too.  I am not, repeat not trying to diminish Tom Doak as an architect.  He is obviously one of the best of a small group out there.  He is probably the most talented working with what the land has to offer.  
Todd and Crenshaw realize that the hardest shot in golf is a long straight drive.  It is not a coincidence that the very best players in the game, are the best drivers.  Jack and Tiger could and can hit it farther and straighter than anyone else.  I like a course that rewards hitting the hardest shot in golf. I also enjoy great archticture, of which AS and PD have tons, but what I enjoy most is challenging the architect and his course and trying to shoot the lowest score I can.  If that requires Drivers,hooded six irons, bump and runs, all the better.  Dan

[Dan_Belden]

Tommy:

   A better example.  Just because an architect  builds a hole seamlessly into the land, doesn't make it a good golf hole.  Granted it is an important part, but it is not the only part.  The 7th hole at AS runs perfectly between two slopes. but even though it looks great it doesn't play great.  Hitting a big slice three wood off the tee is not my idea of a good golf hole, no matter how well it blends with the landscape.  You use the landscape to build as good a hole as you can, but you don't build a golf hole to show off the land-scape, you use the landscape to show off a good golf hole.  The hole and the shot values should be primary, while using the land and its natural features to enhance the shots.  The 7th hole at AS is a great landscape, and the hole fits the landscape perfectly, the problem is the landscape doesn't support a good golf hole.  16th at Cypress is great landscape that fits with a great hole.  Just because you don't move any dirt and tie in all the slopes perfectly doesn't make it a  good golf hole.   I think that you have gotten lost between using the land and building golf holes that the land supports.  Barona's slopes may not all be tied in as perfectly as you want, but the course offers better shots than AS, and it definitely offers better shots for the expert player.  To me that is why Baron is ever so slightly superior to AS.  .
   respectfully, Dan

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dan, I agree we are all on the same sides, but just of a slight different opinion.

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Cheers Gib with your comments on nitpicking any course to death.  This topic has certainly gotten more negative than positive, about 2 courses most people think a lot of, and which were drastic departures from the norm in their respective regions.

I now know Tom's amazement at instances where people talk for you as if it's something you said.  

I look forward to seeing Apache soon, as I've heard great things about it.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Todd,
I thought it was a good idea to compare the two courses, but unfortunately the thread deteriorated when the comments became a little too critical. The fact is, both courses are very fun to play and I believe most folks here hope both you and Tom do a lot more as I believe you both "get it".

I had never done a one course against another and after seeing it done here I thought it might be fun, I don't feel that way any longer. The purpose of this site is to study golf course architecture but I don't believe pitting one course against another is the best method of study.

On another note, the bunkering at Barona is very well done, and the edges are especially striking. We had a very short conversation about them at Barona and I wonder if you could let me know how you envision them aging? Are they low maintenance? Being that they are bermuda how did you plan on edging them? I really like the style and am hoping you could go a little more in depth with your maintenance plan for the bunker edges. Thanks.

[George Pazin]

I think it was a good idea, Don - actually, if you look past the personal barbs, there is a tremendous amount of thoughtful discussion about both courses. As someone who hasn't had the opportunity to play either (yet!), I say thanks for the effort & thanks to everyone involved - next time just lighten up a bit.

Dan Belden -

Has anyone told you about the My Home Course section on GCA...?

[Doug Wright]

Don/Todd,

I agree with George--I thought the discussion was generally at a decent level on this thread, certainly without the histrionics sometimes appearing elsewhere. I learned a lot about both AS (which I've played) and Barona (which I've not yet played). The hole by hole thing ain't perfect but it sparks thought and discussion, particularly where, as here, we're talking about two strong new courses.

I for one appreciate your participation in this discussion group. You both offer perspectives that the vast majority of us here don't have or ever will have.

All The Best,

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Don--Re the bunker edges.  I wouldn't call them low maintenance...in fact when talking to Sandy as he was being interviewed, as to how the course would be for him to maintain, I told him that turf areas as a whole would be simple in that the contours wouldn't be sharp (no fly mowing), but that the bunkers would be a very different challenge for him.  

As 80% or so of the bunkers have a native grass edge to about half of the edges or so (if that makes sense), once established, these areas would require little if any maintenance.  The turf edges, however, as you noted, are very detailed and intriquite.  One of the reasons for the varied and often pronounced lip heights was to help in the maintenance of bermuda runners (a farther distance to get to the sand...vertical, or sometimes inward edging...more time taken for the runners to reach the sand).

In summary, actual turf areas of these bunkers (as I said earlier...about half of each bunker) are not low maintenance, but were judged to be worth the look and distinction.