[Mike_Young]

Secession has to be my favorite flat course.......not much any flatter anywhere......

[Kyle Henderson]

Stevinson Ranch is by far the best course I've played on what was a virtually flat site. I'm surprised no one's mentioned Whistling Straits yet (no first-hand opinions).

[TX Golf]

The majority of Kingsbarns was built on the side of a hill.... It has significant elevation change. Its Probably almost a 200-300 foot drop  from the clubhouse to the holes on the water.

[Steve Lapper]

Thats it!!

There are ABSOLUTELY NO FLAT COURSES in the US!!!


Maybe you should rate them in the 5>,10>, 15> elevation categories!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Winged Foot West not flat? Tilly himself described the property flat in his golf illustrated articles. There are only 3 holes with the slightest elevation changes, 10 and 18, because of the club house which is on the highest point in the property. The 3rd being #15 which plays down to the creek and then back up, leaving 15 flat holes. Winged Foot may appear to not be flat, but thats because of almost all of the greens are pushed up and surrounded by deep bunkers, which is why its a great course on flat land, and also the key to this "Man Sized Course"

Jaeger,

Would you describe # 11 as a flat hole ?
# 12 ?
# 13 ?
# 14 ?
# 17 ?

[Jim Nugent]

There are ABSOLUTELY NO FLAT COURSES in the US!!!

Steve, there used to be at least one absolutely flat course.  The old 9 hole course at Forest Park in St. Louis.  I played there a few times when I was a kid.  Mainly for beginners.  The 18 hole course was much better.  

I understand the 9-hole is NLE, and a new course has taken its place.  

[Andy Troeger]

How does a course with a ravine running through it make this discussion? (Shoreacres). Whistling Straits isn't remotely flat either now--I know it was prior to construction. If you take out the spectator mounding, TPC Sawgrass is fairly flat and probably the best of the bunch that I've seen IMO, with Harbour Town a reasonable second.

Butler National isn't flat enough to be considered IMO, and Talking Stick North isn't as good as the other courses in this post.

[Bill_McBride]

and Talking Stick North isn't as good as the other courses in this post.

.....But definitely a lot flatter!  The only "hill" I can think of at TSN is the mound shoved up in front of that long par 3 #8 to hide the putting surface.

[Doug Wright]

I always think of Talking Stick North when this topic comes up. It's hard to think of really flat courses--even The Ocean Course has some elevation change with the dunes and all.

[PCCraig]

My first thought when I saw the thread was Chicago GC.

In fact Chicago probably has the largest collection of great flat courses in the States, considering very few courses really have any drastic elevation changes to speak of. (Maybe only Shoreacres? and even that is half flat.)

Are you kidding?  Even if I call CGC great for the sake of argument, name one. 

Chicago golf, shoreacres, old elm club, glen view club, beverly, butler national.

Any one of those.

Pat, none of those are flat. Not a single one.

The closest thing to flat is CGC, but even that's not flat.

Citing Shoreacres is just silly. It has flat holes, but it's not flat.

Glen View is a doggone roller coaster.  Have you ever played it? 

The same goes for Beverly and Butler.  Both courses have plenty of up and down to them.

And finally, jeez, the entire Old Elm property slopes noticeably to the SW -  hell, that's what basically makes the golf course!

Pat:  you can't be serious when you call these courses flat. Could you try again, please.

Shivas-

It depends on your definition of "flat"...are you talking Wilmette GC flat? or Chicago flat?

Take for example Glen View, of which I have spent considerable time on. It is not dead flat, but I would never call it a "roller coaster." Compared to other parts of the country, all of the above courses could and would be considered flat, even Shoreacres with the ravines included are not all that dramaticly hilly, in fact even the hilliest holes on the course (11?) is actually DEAD FLAT in the fairway.

[Richard Choi]

Hey, this is my thread and I will define "flat" as I see fit!!!

For this discussion, "flat" means that the difference between the lowest point and the highest point, PER HOLE, is no more than 10 feet. That excludes OB and hazards, which means if it has a bunker that is more than 10 feet deep, it still qualifies.

Rolling lands are fine as long as they don't roll more than 10 feet.

What I am really interested in is this: if you can see every part of the hole from any part of the playing area, it takes a huge amount of strategy and drama from a hole. So, how do these great flat courses do to compensate for that lack of strategy?

[PCCraig]

Nobody would ever call Glenview flat.  That is rolling property.  Actually, some of the most rolling property in the Chicago area.  That's why they built there in the first place, you know...

I agree that Shoreacres has few playing areas that aren't flat, but try walking it dead straight down the middle from tee to green and tell me it's flat!

And how flat is Glen View compared to, say, Bay Hill?   

Actually, Pat, can you name more than 3 flat holes at Glen View?

Holes with less than 20ft elevation change...#1 #2 #5 #9 #10 #11 #12 #13 #14 #15 #18

Many of the "hills" at GVC are sharp and more like large banks...there are not any real holes you feel like you are walking up a ski hill.

Of course GVC is hilly compared to Florida...but how hilly is Glen View compared to Yale, TCC, Augusta, Pebble...my point is in the grand scheme of things almost every course in Chicago can be considered "flat."

Sure it's not the swampland of Florida...but "rolling" just means subtlety flat land.

[PCCraig]

Using that rule, Richard:

Glen View is out on #1

Beverly is out on #2

Butler is out on #1

Old Elm is out on #1

Shoreacres makes it all the way to #5   

And Chicago Golf is out on #1, also, as I recall...

(Oh, and Jack, Bob O' Link makes it all the way to #9, I think.)   

I would buy a new tape measurer.

[Kalen Braley]

This is an interesting thread on many levels...

....but I'm not sure if 10 feet is a good criteria. A 10 foot rise or drop over 350-550 yards is almost impercetible to the human eye. I would hardly call a hole with this type of elevation differential either uphill or downhill over that distance.  Maybe on a short par 3 it would be noticable, but thats about it. 

Even 20-25 feet of elevation delta on a par 5 would still seem flattish if it was gently sloped.

Edit:

An example of this would be the par 5 12th at Pacific Grove in California.  From the tee box down to the landing area there is over 20 feet of drop according to Google Earth.  I would have never guessed it to be this much after having seen it several time and playing it a few times.

[Kalen Braley]

David,

I completely agree with your last post, as opposed to just in general. 

However I would still label those courses as flat, even if tiny evelvation factors come into play because at the end of the hole, they are effectively inconsequential from a mathematical perspective unless you happen to be ubber precise with the sticks like Tiger....

Edit:  After doing a little math, Even a 10 foot rise on a 150 yard approach shot is meaningless, even for someone like Tiger.

[Mike_Young]

Hey, this is my thread and I will define "flat" as I see fit!!!

For this discussion, "flat" means that the difference between the lowest point and the highest point, PER HOLE, is no more than 10 feet. That excludes OB and hazards, which means if it has a bunker that is more than 10 feet deep, it still qualifies.

Rolling lands are fine as long as they don't roll more than 10 feet.

What I am really interested in is this: if you can see every part of the hole from any part of the playing area, it takes a huge amount of strategy and drama from a hole. So, how do these great flat courses do to compensate for that lack of strategy?

Richard,
OK...your post...but would it not be better to say "Best flat holes" as per your definition.  I have seen plenty of flat holes built on the side of a mountain.....a flat course is a different animal and a different set of issues.  And rolling land is not flat..no matter how you say it.....JMO

[Richard Choi]

Mike, I think that is a great idea for another thread

Seriously, I would love to see great flat holes dissected for their play value. I think decontruction discussions like this gives us better focus on what makes great golf architecture.

[Mike_Young]

Richard,
For example.....I did a course in Louisiana at the end of a runway.....the fall on the property was less than 1 foot every 1000 feet.  Now while that is a flat piece of land , one has to create movement in order to drain the course and move water...which means I move much more dirt than on a flat hole on elevated land....
Flat courses are the most difficult sites IMHO.....and expensive.....often many wetlands by their very nature.....
But there are some very good courses built on flat land.....St Andrews, Ocean Course, Secession, all the HH courses.....bunch of themmmmm

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thats it!!

There are ABSOLUTELY NO FLAT COURSES in the US!!!

Maybe you should rate them in the 5>,10>, 15> elevation categories!

Steve,

What EVERYONE has forgotten is the following.

If a golf courses were flat, there'd be NO surface drainage.

That's one of the reasons that very flat sites, such as Boca Rio have elevated greens.

Without elevated greens in rainy South Florida, it wouldn't be long before the swamps reclaimed the golf courses. 

[Scott Weersing]

I would guess you are asking about courses built in areas without hills or ravines.

So it takes a lot of work to move the dirt to make a flat course interesting.

The Rawls course and Shadow Creek were built on flat land. Many of the courses in Palm Desert/La Quinta are built on flat land. None of those are memorable.

I like what Forrest did with Olivas Links in Ventura. He made a flat course into a fun links course.

Many of the courses here in Virginia Beach are built on very flat land but lots of dirt was moved to make the holes interesting. I would guess Florida might have some flat land. I would say TPC Sawgrass is the best course on flat land but it is one of kind.

[John_Conley]

Who is the best looking girl that's not hot?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()