[Dan Kelly]

In a recent edition of The New Yorker (at http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/skyline/2008/08/25/080825crsk_skyline_goldberger), architecture critic Paul Goldberger writes about the rebirth of 2 Columbus Circle.

He opens with some observations about our relationships with buildings -- observations that *must* have some correlation(s) to our relationships with golf courses, generally and/or specifically. I'll leave it to you fellows, as Jack would say, to find the correlation(s):

"Huntington Hartford’s old Gallery of Modern Art — the white marble bonbon that stood at 2 Columbus Circle from 1964 until a couple of years ago — was a hard building to love but became an even harder one to hate. Excoriated by critics when it went up, then championed by preservationists when it was threatened with destruction, the building provides an object lesson in the inexorable march of architectural fashion and may point to an even more basic truth about people and buildings: we get used to things we don’t like and then come to like things we’ve got used to."

Discuss, if you'd care to.

I'll confess that my first thought was: "The Raynor Paradox!"

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

I think that explains why club members like their own course, no matter how good or bad it really is.

But I don't think it has much to do with golf course architectural critique.  Just because most courses will eventually find an audience willing to accept them, doesn't mean "it's all good."

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, I think that is a good way of understanding it.  Many golfers get locked into an otherwise unremarkable or actually crappy course due to a variety of circumstances from the only one affordable to the only one close enough to work into their busy schedules, etc.  So, they have to find a way to like it.  Maybe that means playing it with different strategies, like only playing 7-9 clubs from time to time, only hitting irons off tees, only playing certain betting games with pals, etc. I've heard of people that play at some of these crappy cow pasture courses that just simply skip lousy holes and move on to the ones that make some sense, or only play one loop of 9, because the other is so bad.

[Jason Topp]

   I think the quality of a golf course is a relatively small percentage of the quality of the overall golf experience - even for me and I care a lot about the quality of a golf course.  I sometimes miss my old muni course and really have fun when I go back.  Nonetheless, if I compare the quality of holes, I could argue that  the best holes at that 27 hole facility are not any better than the worst holes at my current course.

[Anthony Gray]

   As the bond grows stronger between the golfer and the course you start to accept the little flaws and even at times embrace them. The course becomes your friend your oasis. Dan Kelly gives us yet another example of the greatness of golf. The game that truly imitates life.
                 
                And she'll promise you more
               Than the Garden of Eden
               Then she'll carelessly cut you
                And laugh while you're bleedin
               But she'll bring out the best
                And the worst tou can be
                Blame it all on yourself
                Cause she's always a woman to me                               

   

[TEPaul]

DanK:

Interesting subject and I would like to get into it after some serious consideration but first I would like to mention my recollections of Huntingdon Hartford himself.

When I was young and wild and on the party circuit around NY and all other points involving that particular group of people back then, Huntingdon Hartford always seemed to be around whether it was NYC, LI, the Bahamas, Palm Beach etc.

The guy was a ton older than all of us and he was distinctly standoffish, but he also happened to be a world-class notorious LETCH! He constantly hit on our girlfriends who were all 20-30 years younger than him. The really interesting thing is he wouldn't exactly hit on them himself, he would get his clingers and hangers-on to go up and try to do it for him as he stood off in a corner.

It got so bad some of us would go up to him and make fun of him and eventually he sort of became our friend in a strange kinda way. But he was so goddamned rich and everybody knew that it was pretty interesting back then. He never got to either of my two girlfriends from those days but he definitely operated under the theory "If you can't compete with them just totally outspend them" and I guess it sometimes worked with some of our marginally dedicated girlfriends dreaming of their futures!


I remember well that project (that building) and how proud he was of it and I remember his interesting involvement with Paradise Island, The Bahamas.

I sort of forget why he was so goddamned rich. I vaguely recall he was THE A&P heir. I also seem to recall he ended up with a lot less than he came into this world with.

[Bob_Huntley]

DanK:

Interesting subject and I would like to get into it after some serious consideration but first I would like to mention my recollections of Huntingdon Hartford himself.

When I was young and wild and on the party circuit around NY and all other points involving that particular group of people back then, Huntingdon Hartford always seemed to be around whether it was NYC, LI, the Bahamas, Palm Beach etc.

The guy was a ton older than all of us and he was distinctly standoffish, but he also happened to be a world-class notorious LETCH! He constantly hit on our girlfriends who were all 20-30 years younger than him. The really interesting thing is he wouldn't exactly hit on them himself, he would get his clingers and hangers-on to go up and try to do it for him as he stood off in a corner.

It got so bad some of us would go up to him and make fun of him and eventually he sort of became our friend in a strange kinda way. But he was so goddamned rich and everybody knew that it was pretty interesting back then. He never got to either of my two girlfriends from those days but he definitely operated under the theory "If you can't compete with them just totally outspend them" and I guess it sometimes worked with some of our marginally dedicated girlfriends dreaming of their futures!


I remember well that project (that building) and how proud he was of it and I remember his interesting involvement with Paradise Island, The Bahamas.

I sort of forget why he was so goddamned rich. I vaguely recall he was THE A&P heir. I also seem to recall he ended up with a lot less than he came into this world with.

Tom,

We had a guy at Riviera who hung around the fringes of what was considered 'Society' in Los Angeles. He was of the much marrying kind. I was playing with him one day after he announced his fourth betrothal and he mentioned the name of some grande dame. I made mention that she was somewhat, if not, a much older woman. He replied that she dropped a year for every million of net worth and according to his lights they were completely compatible.

Bob

[Dan Kelly]

Tom I --

I didn't expect a Hartford disquisition! (Nobody expects a Hartford disquisition!) But I'm glad I got one.

Here's the Wikipedia entry (including some possibly reliable links) about your lecherous pal, who made it to age 97 and died just his year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_hartford.

All --

I wonder if these blanks are fillable:

"__________________s old ____________ ... was a hard golf course to love but became an even harder one to hate. Excoriated by critics when it went up, then championed by preservationists when it was threatened with destruction, the course provides an object lesson in the inexorable march of architectural fashion and may point to an even more basic truth about people and golf courses: we get used to things we don’t like and then come to like things we’ve got used to."

[BCrosby]

There was an article on HH in Vanity Fair a couple of months ago. HH endured a long. slow fall from grace.

No mention of TEP's girlfriends.

As for Dan's thesis, there is certainly something to the idea that I like it because I'm used to it. But isn't that another way of saying I like it because I can't imagine anything else. Which, in turn, amounts to a failure of the imagination?

I got something like that response from members when discussing changes to our course. "I like it the way it is." How best to respond to that sort of comment is tricky.

Bob

[Bill Shamleffer]

I posted the following a while back, but I think I have seen a HamiltonBHearst posting since I typed this.

I was waiting for Hamilton B. Hearst to explain that none of the clubs where he is a member need initiation fees this high to obtain the "proper type" of membership.  Besides, most of the members at the clubs where he is a member can not afford these fees since their trust funds are not very liquid.

Then I realized that since the death of Huntington Hartford I have not seen any Hamilton B. Hearst postings. 

For any not aware of the eccentric Huntington Hartford, google for his recent obits.

But back to the topic of this discussion.

I played many many rounds at the University of Missouri course, A.L. Gustin (and my transcript can prove it).  I first hated the course, then got over hating it, and it eventually became one of my favorite courses that I have ever played.  If most on this site played one round at this course, it would likely be a forgettable course.  It is a goat track (very hilly), has some goofy holes, and was usually in poor condition (it had no irrigation when I was at the University of Missouri).

But, the greens were always in good shape and not as slow as the typical low priced muni/public.  More importantly, it does require strategy and offered a variety of options.

The course opens with a gently uphill par-5 of under 500 yards.  The 3rd is a sharp dogleg right with heavy woods along the right and with the fairway sloping towards the woods, and then with a very well placed bunker just past the end of the fairway where a straight drive would go.  The 6th, 7th & 9th holes are all drivable par-4s, but with a lot of other things going on.  The 6th is a dogleg left with about a 70' drop from tee to green; the 7th has a tree directly between the tee and the green at about 75 yards before the green, and one must decide if you want your drive to be to the left of the tree or the right.  The 15th is a par 4 harder to reach in 2 than is the par-5 first, and the 16 is also almost drivable, but with some hills and valleys between the tee and green.

This course may not appeal to many others, but it is a course I will always place as a favorite of mine.



By the way – GOOOOOOOOOOOO TIGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[I am very much enjoying this special season, and am very excited about the next 2 weeks.  First Missouri hosts Oklahoma State (also an amazing offense).  Then down to Texas, 1 week after Texas plays #1 Oklahoma.  A great 2 weeks of Big 12 football.]

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'll confess that my first thought was: "The Raynor Paradox!"-Dan Kelly

Whatsamattaforyou, you never heard of Desmond Muirhead? 

I think it relates in one way, it appears that the writer( and others) felt that the space didn't work well as a gallery, no matter how the building's been accepted for its structure. If a golf course 'worked' as poorly it would be an object of disdain, and only used if there was no other in the given market or if it was at a price point that wasn't being filled.

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