[Sean_A]

I've always believed that one of the most interesting things I can do as an architect is to create approaches which allow for (and even sometimes assist) a 3-wood approach shot, but which aren't so easy when you've got an 8-iron in your hands.  It's not so hard to do -- say, a small green with a steep approach, so the 3-wood will bounce up there but the 8-iron will suck back down the hill; or a big helping contour 15 yards in front of the green on the right, which isn't going to be any help for the 8-iron.

This is a thought I believe in 100%.  To me it implies that the course can accomodate nearly everybody who plays.  It also presses home the point that sometimes (regardless of wind!) having to hit a runner from 150 yards because you know there is no chance to get close to the flag via the aerial route is the BEST way to play the hole - its just not very intuitive.  One of the best examples of this type of hole is #8 at Huntercombe.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

I should add:

Tommy W.

Your post is spot on and memorable.

Dick D.

Ditto

Tom D./Sean A.

Only if that 3-wood shot must be hit with great skill and precision.  If you are talking about some sort of fairway/approach "punchbowl" effect, it is just goofy golf and disrespectful of the skills that even we seniors can occasionally produce (insert proper smiley face here).

Rich

[Sean_A]

I should add:

Tommy W.

Your post is spot on and memorable.

Dick D.

Ditto

Tom D./Sean A.

Only if that 3-wood shot must be hit with great skill and precision.  If you are talking about some sort of fairway/approach "punchbowl" effect, it is just goofy golf and disrespectful of the skills that even we seniors can occasionally produce (insert proper smiley face here).

Rich

Rihc

I have a lot of time for a well conceived punchbowl hole.  In any case, I respectfully suggest you visit Huntercombe and let me know if the 8th is a punchbowl hole or even if you think its goofy.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

I was talking about "punchbowl" fairways/approaches rather than punchbowl greens (which I love, in moderation...).  Which of the two is Huntercombe #8?

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

I played at Elie on Friday.  Two groups behind us was a 78 year old 12 handicapper called Peter Thompson.  Now, in his youth I understand he could play a bit.  He still didn't seem to deviate far from the centre of the fairway but he looked like a genuine 12.  He still seemed to be getting a kick out of his game, however.

One other thing: at 78 (79 this week) he was still carrying his clubs.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean

I was talking about "punchbowl" fairways/approaches rather than punchbowl greens (which I love, in moderation...).  Which of the two is Huntercombe #8?

Rich

It's neither.  The green is steeply two tiered and the only way to gat a ball to the back tee is to run it up - the precision required to hit and hold the very shallow top tier would be beyond even most very low handicappers, I guess.

[Ken Moum]

I don't believe the deterioration (or lack) of golf skills can do anything but lower a golfer's appreciation for great golf architecture.  If you can't execute for whatever reason, I believe the poorer golfer, even the former expert, cannot appreciate the problems and challenges that the the fine architects such as you have created?...

But do I really want to play a great Tom Doak course or a classic Tom Doak hole when my ability to execute is closer to zero than ever before (no matter how much I play and practice)?

I bet I won't.

That doesn't explain a couple of our most famous GCA writers-- Whitten and Klein.

Neither of them claim to be great golfers. One thing I will suggest is that the best critics are able to separate the way they play from their opinion of the course, which most players are unable to do.

I know I have trouble doing that. I still can't get over the fact that I thought Royal Dornoch was too darned hard and couldn't see why people think it's the best ever.

Ken

[TEPaul]

Paul Cowley:

Your post #69 is a wonderful one and a hilarious one too. Nicklaus' remark in print that Doak does not really understand what a good golf shot is was a remark that Jack himself probably realized quite quickly was one in which he had squarely inserted his foot or perhaps both of them into his mouth! 

It may be true to say that Tom Doak does not understand a good golf shot as Nicklaus hits them or did hit them as well as Jack does but the fact is, and the point is, Tom Doak probably understands a whole lot better than Jack does what a good golf shot is to most all other golfers who are not Nicklaus, never were and never will be.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

You said I would have more fun with golf if I just moved up to a tee that was more suited to my length.

Actually, that is not the case and never has been. I've always been short off the tee with a driver even in the years I played at scratch and I actually had great joy and gratification at doing what I called "sneaking up on holes before they saw me coming."

I realize this is pretty counter-intuitive but I really mean it and I take great pride and experience even more gratification at doing that very thing as I get older and even shorter, and that's why I like to play back tees more than other tees.

About two years ago we played with the long-time green chairman at Shinnecock and he made the rather startling decision that we should all play from the US Open tees. He had a reason for wanting to do that and when the day was done although I sure didn't set any course records he did say to me: "That was some of the most remarkable strategizing I've ever seen." He even asked me if I would teach it to him. All I told him was it was basically Tommy Armour's old adage to play each shot so that the next one will be the easiest. One can never do that by constantly over estimating shot making of which one is basically not capable. 

[Walter Bart]

     Weighing in on the subject re. my experience last week at the High Handicap division of the Carnegie Shield at Dornoch, I  went as far as the semifinals playing off 15 hcp. I played three times against guys my age in match play ( 65) and won two them . The guy whodid beat me whipped a 16 year old (11hcp) in the finals and shot a 78 off of 13hcp! 

    I had NEVER walked 36 holes in my life, but felt like I was walking on air  that day.  One of my qualifying scores of 86 was  the best of my life there and was better than many low handicappers and better than a plus one who shot an 87( he had tougher conditions)

    You might know that I was given a gift of a personal trainer last year who has done wonders for my flexibilty. That may be the key.

     The game Must go on.  Question - any anecdotes out there on the age of people playing good golf??  I need more inspiration for the future.

[Sean_A]

Sean

I was talking about "punchbowl" fairways/approaches rather than punchbowl greens (which I love, in moderation...).  Which of the two is Huntercombe #8?

Rich

Rihc

This pic will give you some idea of the 8th green at Huntercombe.


That some idea wouldn't include the general cant of the green to the left and the back sloping nature of the top tier.  Amongst shanks, hoicks & spin backs, I have pulled off holding the back tier (just) with a beautifully judged running 5 iron from ~150 yards only once. 

This is really one of the unsung holes (among many of an unsung course) in English golf and it all comes down to the green.

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

Tom:

I opened this thread while feeling sorry for myself because of a miserable season.  Nonetheless, I encourage you to keep after it.  Clearly you still have a passion for the game or you would not be asking the question.

There are many aspects of the game I enjoy such as the camraderie, the architecture and the health benefits.  Nonetheless, for me, the essence of the game is trying to play it as well as I can.  I doubt I could ever play "happy golf" and be indifferent about how I play.

I think it is possible to enjoy the effort to improve even when it does not bear fruit and even when age makes it unlikely you will ever shoot scores that you once shot.  One book that was helpful for me when I thought of myself as a 3 handicap college golfer but had become a 30 year old 16 handicap was "the Golf of Your Dreams" by Bob Rotella.  

The book helped change my perspective.  I now enjoy chasing improvement.  Most years I improve at something.  Some years I get worse at everything.  Regardless, I enjoy making the effort.

[TEPaul]

Jason:

Thanks. Yesterday I went out to my club thinking specifically of Pat Mucci's advice and practiced for a couple of hours going through all the little specific things I did when I practiced regularly when I was playing good. It was pretty cool and very satisfying and I went home feeling good. I'd sort of forgotten how much concentration it really does take to do it right.

For those who've never really experienced it, in my opinion, practicing right and productively takes just as much concentration and discipline as actually playing tournament golf and stroke play tournament golf at that. I always thought stroke play tournament golf was a whole lot more mentally taxing than match play tournament golf.

But practicing productively is also a real discipline. Do most of you guys know that and feel that way? In my opinion, just beating balls with no real concentration is almost counter-productive.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

But practicing productively is also a real discipline. Do most of you guys know that and feel that way? In my opinion, just beating balls with no real concentration is almost counter-productive.

I agree.  I see productive practice as a real challenge to one's imagination.  I try to stay engaged, fix mechanics and test whether they work when I am nervous.  Figuring out how to do that while building rather than destroying confidence is an art.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jason -

that last line of yours was terrific. I went to the range the other day, and coming home I was trying to put my finger on what was bothering me about it -- and I think you articulated it perfectly i.e.  how to stay engaged and fix mechanics while building rather than destroying confidence is an art.

Now, I have no idea what I'm going to DO with that insight, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

Peter

[Bob_Huntley]

     Weighing in on the subject re. my experience last week at the High Handicap division of the Carnegie Shield at Dornoch, I  went as far as the semifinals playing off 15 hcp. I played three times against guys my age in match play ( 65) and won two them . The guy whodid beat me whipped a 16 year old (11hcp) in the finals and shot a 78 off of 13hcp! 

    I had NEVER walked 36 holes in my life, but felt like I was walking on air  that day.  One of my qualifying scores of 86 was  the best of my life there and was better than many low handicappers and better than a plus one who shot an 87( he had tougher conditions)

    You might know that I was given a gift of a personal trainer last year who has done wonders for my flexibilty. That may be the key.

     The game Must go on.  Question - any anecdotes out there on the age of people playing good golf??  I need more inspiration for the future.

Walter,

Do tell what your personal trainer had to impart.... I need it badly.

Bob

[Steve_Lemmon]

Embrace age and guile.  I think you have to learn to experience as much joy from the little chip that meanders down next to the hole as you do from a piercing 4 iron into the wind.  I remember playing with my grandfather on a Houston muny and watching him putt a ball straight through a trap.  He was not hitting the ball well at all that day, but that shot turned out and taught me a lot about golf.   My introduction to the Texas wedge. 

[Walter Bart]

BOB

    The trainor, who happens to be a PHD Scotsman, working in Mass, emphasizes " core" workouts, which focus on building up a strong central  system. esp. back and stomach muscles.  The exercises are fairly simple, but he works me exceptionally hard weekly, to the point where  I am exhausted at night.  I supplement it with two more workouts a week.
Also my ability to touch my toes was awful, because of prior basketball without stretching.  Improving this aspect gradually.  Must stretch after every exercise.

    My wife and I decided that, for both of us, the expense was worth it as an investment in our future level of activity. So far, it's been realized.

[TEPaul]

Jason:

Speaking of productive practice, I guess everyone develops their own thing that way. About 5-6 years ago Gene Fieger at Overbrook was probably the most successful playing pro around here and he sure had his own ideas about practice. I was speaking with him one time about it in Florida and he claimed he was so "right brain" (not that I know what that means) that he basically couldn't hit more than about ten balls because he would get so bored. He said his productive practice sessions were to just think about the swing and such and that would do it. 

As for me these days I still know what to do and work on, it's just that these days my body does not seem to want to cooperate with me that much. Maybe I'll do what Gene Fieger did and I'll continue to hit balls and my body can just sit on the bag and think about it.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

 He said his productive practice sessions were to just think about the swing and such and that would do it. 

Rotella's books discuss pounding balls and improving mechanics as the way to become good, but that such effort is often counterproductive when trying to become great. 

One of my favorite stories in his books is about a guy (I cannot recall the name) who won the club championship at Pine Valley in a year where he did not play much.  He focused instead on his game plan and routine and wound up winning by a large margin.  The chapter is a pretty good architecture chapter as well because it describes the many decisions he made in attacking the course.

Padraig Harrington partially credited his success at the Open on the fact he could not physically practice much.  Tiger Woods did ok this year without being able to physically practice.

I need to hit balls. 

[Richard Boult]

One of my ski instructor/guru friends, Weems Westfeldt of Aspen, has written a wonderful book called "Brilliant Skiing Every Day"  you can download it online actually (google brilliant skiing or sports diamond).  He has developed a teaching/self coaching model that helps eliminate the plateau syndrome, it all applies to any sport or learning situation. Check it out, it's brilliant.  As far as the question of should you keep after it...that is exactly what golf is about.  The old pro I grew up around would always ask me "Are you working on your game?"  It's what matters, that and how you work on it.  Embrace cunning and treachery to beat your opponents, the course or time.  Obviously time will prevail, but go out kicking.

I found the free download at http://www.edgechange.com/.  Just skimming the ebook right now, but liked this quote:

"Long term and short term, my goal and my processes are about brilliance. I can’t make the best turns every day. I can't shoot my lowest golf scores every day or beat my opponent in tennis every day. But I can be brilliant each day I go out--in my manner, training, tactics, poise, attitude, engagement, attention, centering, feeling, sense of humor, and my will to shine, even if it's a brilliance that only I notice."

[JMorgan]

Tom,

To steal one from Darwin:

"I have made the best case I can for giving up, and there really does seem something, not much perhaps but something, to be said for it.

Superfluous lags the vet'ran on the stage,

but people are wonderfully kind in not telling him so, and he is happily stupid enough not to find it out for himself."

[Patrick_Mucci]

JMorgan,

That's only because there was no handicap system to equalize the players on the stage.

Golf has that unique equalizer that allows everyone to compete on an equal footing, regardless of their ability or lack thereof.

Vive la difference

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