[Peter Galea]

Pat Craig,

I just saw your post.  Where was the course located?  I am trying to figure out what would be located north of Carmel that has a clubhouse like that.  Bent Tree has a really neat old farm house, but I can't picture a castle anywhere. 

My headpro, Janet knows the course, north of Indy with a castle clubhouse is Stonehenge in Warsaw, IN.

[Nick Pozaric]

Im going to go with French Lick Ross course.  To have the opportunity to play a great course like this on a daily basis is incredible.  The prices are fantastic and we played there last week and the course could not be in better condition then it is right now.   To be able to play an old Donald Ross course like this is a fantastic treat.   

Hoosiers are very fortunate to have the Ross course and many other fantastic courses available to them on a daily fee basis

[Andy Troeger]

Interesting, I've played Stonehenge and never would guessed at a castle clubhouse. I remembered it more as a big white building that pretty well resembles a number of other clubhouses...granted I don't pay much attention to such things.

Stonehenge is generally considered private, but its not that hard to get on if your pro gives them a call. I don't know how well they do financially, so they need the $ most likely. Its worth playing as it has some interesting holes and a distinct mowing pattern that makes the fairways look more intimidating (and smaller) than they really are once you get out there.

[Chris_Clouser]

Peter,

Thanks.  I thought Stonehenge was private.  That's why it didn't pop into my head I guess.  

Andy,

I think on Beechwood, what you see as a reason to consider it worthwhile is one of the reasons that I am turned off by the course.  They are wasting away what could be a gem.  Also when I was there, the head pro seemed offended that I didn't consider the course the best I had ever seen.  He kept talking about what the course had been at one time.  All I could think was, "Hello, but what is the course like today?"    

As for White Hawk, I could easily see why people might think that if they do play the lousy nines.    But seriously, the combination of the Grey and the Black is a very good public layout.  There are problems with White Hawk including the availability and pace of play.  The place is a golf outing whore.  They probably have 3 or 4 a week, so a 36 hole facility each day is basically cut in half and they squeeze all of the paying players onto a rotating 18 hole set instead of spreading them out of the entire complex and create 5 hour rounds.  Also, there is housing around the course, but that is a fact of life anymore.  Yes, it ruins the ambience.  But if one looks at the individual holes and their design one would be hard pressed to knock that combo.  That is why I say only go there if you know you are playing the Grey and Black, because otherwise it is a waste of time and money.  You could probably be just as well off going over to play at Aberdeen.    (Inside joke between Andy and myself)

[Andy Troeger]

Chris,
The same folks who complain about White Hawk also avoid Aberdeen as much as possible (they are from Valparaiso so its much closer). There really isn't any public west of South Bend that really has that much going for it, I really still would play Beechwood over any of them despite the conditions. I wonder if you caught it on a bad day too, its not usually that bad and they usually keep the greens in nice shape, just not what it could be as a whole.

What nines were the originals at White Hawk? The good ones or the others? Any idea?

[John Nixon]

I was thinking of Stonehenge, but the "just north" of Carmel bit threw me off a bit   

Off to a meeting, I'll add my invaluable insights on Hoosier golf later...

[Chris_Clouser]

Andy,

Red and Black were original.  Grey was added very shortly after the course opened.  The Silver nine opened last year.  Here is the layout per the satellite view.  The Silver is still under construction from the latest image, so I left it out.  White lines are for the Grey nine.

[Doug Ralston]

I haven't played that many of these top courses, but here are some I do appreciate.

Top Few [INPO]:

Rock Hollow
Sultan's Run
Purgatory
Trophy Club

Also very good:

Coyote Crossing
Buck Point
Belterra
Otter Creek
French Lick

Certainly worth a visit:

Grand Oak
Royal Hylands
Prairie View [I had a birthday freebie, too pricey for area]

My list of need to's:

The Fort
Brickyard
Bear Slide
Warren [even if it IS at ND  ]
Champion's Point

What I love about this and related threads [Champion's Pointe, Sultan's Run and Buck Point] is that we are talking about courses more within the common player's range. When many players go from "how did I score" to "what kind of course do I enjoy", it is far more likely to be this type of course that attracts them to architecture appreciation than Merion!

Here we talk about Merion's 3rd, Merion's 8th, Merion's Clubhouse, Merion's food, Merion's sewage system ad nauseum. Often it seems that everyone should see how important golf course architecture is by reading about Pine Valley, Merion, Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills, Old Course etc, which most NEVER will play and therefor are unlikely to 'see it'.

I personally am never going to get onto these masterpieces, but I still appreciate the much greater pleasure one gets from playing a sweetly designed course. The courses in these threads are worth playing, and worth appreciating, as they lead to more joy of golf!

GCA should certainly continue to talk about the great masterworks. But also remember that vastly more will begin down the road on 'lesser', but still demonstative courses like this. I hope to see more threads about 'worth playing' courses all around.

Doug

[John Nixon]

Purgatory - I thought was outstanding.  I was expecting the course to be gimmicky but instead found a very very good golf course

The Fort - I liked, but not as much as some on here.  I would take Purgatory over The Fort (have played each only once though)

Coffin - Fun place, mix of good holes and a few holes that seemed to be so bad they were good

Indiana University - Quite a few good holes there, haven't played it since the renovation.

JAL, your post seems a good starting point for my thoughts:

I agree on Purgatory, and have said before it's too bad the owners saddled it with the extra-long par 5. The course deserves better pub than that.

The Fort is my co-#1, along with Purgatory.

Coffin is an outstanding design ruined by poor maintenence and bad drainage.

I played the IU course once, 8 years ago. I was still really a beginner and found it an impossibly long, boring slog. Now that I'm a little better player, and somewhat better informed about golf course design, it sits in my memory as an impossibly long, boring slog. That rumored redesign can't come soon enough for me.

Purdue Kampen - In my opinion a top-ten course in the state. I found the par 3s to be a bit repetitive, but the rest of the course demands a huge variety of shots.

I also like Bear Slide and West Chase. Plum Creek is a good, not great Pete Dye design that is waaaay overpriced, but worth a look in the Carmel area.

I played Legends of Indiana once, and have not seen a reason to go back. Yawn.

Eagle Creek, even with the universally-lamented breakup of the original Championship 18, is to me still an enjoyable early Pete Dye course, at least what's left of it. I have not played it for a few years though, so I'm not sure how the 9 newer holes have assimilated into the original 27.

[JLahrman]

John, I don't know about a slog but I don't think IU's course is overly long.

There are only two par 5s.  I don't know the yardages, but the only par 4s that I think of as being long are 12 and 16.  The par 3s are long, 4 is about 220 downhill, 7 is probably 205, and 14 is probably 210 also downhill.

The back nine of eight par 4s and one par 3 is a bit of a slog, but I don't think the course is long.  Boring?  I guess that's in the eye of the beholder.  Getting to play it for 12 bucks a round as an IU grad student from 2001-2003...a course would have had to be REALLY boring with those kind of rates and my income at the time.

[Glenn Spencer]

Chris,

There is zero chance that you won't love Victoria National.



I have been fortunate and  have really only played Purgatory and The Trophy Club.  I really appreciated Trophy, I thought it was a blast to play, hard and secluded. 3 big things for me. I haven't seen it mentioned and I do believe that it is listed as being in Indiana- Buck Point. Out of the 18 full shots that you are asked to hit on the front, I think they are all great except for the tee shot on 15. The front is solid with some good holes, but the back is just REALLY good. Nobody knows about it though.

[Doug Ralston]

Chris,

There is zero chance that you won't love Victoria National.



I have been fortunate and  have really only played Purgatory and The Trophy Club.  I really appreciated Trophy, I thought it was a blast to play, hard and secluded. 3 big things for me. I haven't seen it mentioned and I do believe that it is listed as being in Indiana- Buck Point. Out of the 18 full shots that you are asked to hit on the front, I think they are all great except for the tee shot on 15. The front is solid with some good holes, but the back is just REALLY good. Nobody knows about it though.

Glenn;

Is my post invisible? Then try this one: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35388.0.html

Doug

[Doug Ralston]

Besides, what is not to love about the tee shot at #15? "You take the high road and I'll take the low road ...... "

Doug

[Glenn Spencer]

Besides, what is not to love about the tee shot at #15? "You take the high road and I'll take the low road ...... "

Doug

My sincere apologies, Douglas. I have been working some strange hours lately. It must be getting to me and I am slipping.

[John Nixon]

John, I don't know about a slog but I don't think IU's course is overly long.

There are only two par 5s.  I don't know the yardages, but the only par 4s that I think of as being long are 12 and 16.  The par 3s are long, 4 is about 220 downhill, 7 is probably 205, and 14 is probably 210 also downhill.

The back nine of eight par 4s and one par 3 is a bit of a slog, but I don't think the course is long.  Boring?  I guess that's in the eye of the beholder.  Getting to play it for 12 bucks a round as an IU grad student from 2001-2003...a course would have had to be REALLY boring with those kind of rates and my income at the time.

Fair enough, I never was much of a long hitter. And yeah, for $12 I can overlook a lot as well.   

[John Nixon]

In fact, there is a real “hidden gem” just north of Carmel (which I can’t remember the name at all) that I have played while visiting friends in the area that is a really neat place. The only distinguishing remark I can make about it is that its clubhouse is fashioned after a medieval castle. (Really.)

Or, maybe, you're thinking of Brookshire, which is in Carmel. A Bill Diddel course, the entrances to the neighborhood (which is where I live, BTW) are each marked by two medieval-ish towers, and the clubhouse, while not medieval, is built of grey stone.

Nice course to have in one's neighborhood - underwent a period of neglect, but the city of Carmel recently purchased the course and seems to be interested in putting some $ and effort into upgrading it.

[PCCraig]

Brookshire!! That is it John. I literally found that course by saying to a buddy “lets drive until we see the first public course we see.” I liked it enough that I actually went back there to play a second time on a separate trip to Indy. It is hardly the four seasons, but it has a nice variety of holes for a local muni, and has a great “country course” feel.

[John Nixon]

Glad you liked it, Pat. How long ago was that? As I said, it's probably in better shape now than when you played it.

[PCCraig]

John –

I think the first time I played it was in September of 2006, and the second time was May of 2007. It has been a little while. I just remember driving along the road along the par-3 next to the house and said… “That doesn’t look too bad.” There were a few good holes if I remember correctly, The first is a good par-4 down the hill, that par-3, the par 4 with a stream down one side, and I think the 9th, a par-3 at the clubhouse.  It’s a prefect course for a quick evening 9 if in the area on business or pleasure.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

That sounds like too much to pass up.  I will have to add it to the trip when I come over to the area.  Thanks for the info.  Now if I end up not liking it, can I send you a bill for the gasoline?   


 

I played Vincennes again today and will pay for your gasonline if you don't like it...I'll even throw in a match.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Purdue (Dye) (I was thinking Eric Terhost started a thread about it, but I can't find it anywhere)

Chirs, I didn't start a thread about Kampen, I sent you a note trying to enhance your opinion.

I like all those mentioned that I've played, including Warren, Otter Creek, Sultan's Run and (above the rest) French Lick and Harrison Hills (especially the back nine).  The Purdue course is mostly Tim Liddy's work I believe, and I like it better than the Trophy Club.  Pluses: Great greens, more strategic than those who've commented give it credit for, and lots of variety in the par 4s and 5s.  Minus:  The par 3s are pretty good, but too similar to each other, and there are couple of misplaced cart paths.

[Criss Titschinger]

Certainly worth a visit:

Grand Oak

Played this one today.  Certainly interesting, that's for sure (VERY HILLY).  I think the amount of blind tee shots turn most players off to this course.  I don't mind blind shots at all, so I thought it was fine.

I read somewhere in another thread about Cincinnati not having firm/fast courses.  There's no irrigation at Grand Oak and because of the high heat the Cincinnati region has had over the last few days, I was getting LOTS of roll on my tee shots, and could play bump and run second shots.  I'll pass on the "Should a course be built on land like this" argument for now 

[Richard Hetzel]

I live in Cincinnati and for public offerings we have average golf courses, at best. The only nice thing here is that golf on a decent course is relatively cheap all over town. Many places are under $30 with cart. With that said, I would much rather drive to Indy to play golf when time permits! More often than not, I drive to play rather than playing here. As soon as the kids get a bit bigger I will join a club...

I was stationed at Fort Ben Harrison in 1987 so I remember the original course. The Fort by Dye is AWESOME. I played Purgatory in the rain in mid May and it was fun as well.

I am hoping to squeeze in Heartland Crossing, BrickYard, otter Creek and Trophy Club before winter sets in as well.

18th green at The Fort

[Chris_Clouser]

John,

I will e-mail when I am coming down to that area to check out Hulman and Vincennes.  Perhaps then we will both be available and not miss each other again.

Eric,

I remember our e-mail, but I was thinking you did a post on Kampen.  Perhaps it was someone else.  But as for it's ranking, until they stop maintaining the place like they are hosting the US Open everyday it as a hole is not even in the conversation with course likeTrophy in my mind.  If they change that then we can start talking because I think potentially it could be a pretty good course.  It is a fine example of how the right maintenance meld can make the difference for any course. 

Criss,

As for Grand Oak I thought it was quite a nice place when I recently visited.  I was trying to think of the blind tee shots.  3 would be one.  With 3 at the least the fairway is over a hill and you cannot see it.  I would put it in my third level group, along with Buck Point that I recently visited. 

Belterra was somewhat disappointing based on what I had heard about it, but still if you are driving by it is worth a visit.  My first Tom Fazio, but I didn't find it totally unpalatable.  I would put it somewhere at the bottom of my second group in my original post. 

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