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Jason McNamara

Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2008, 06:26:01 PM »
In 1930 the population of DC was 487,000 and the population of New York was 6.9 million, Chicago 3.4 million, and Philadelphia 2.0 million.

Great stats, Bill.  I would only add that back then DC was probably even more deserted in the summer.

Surviving a summer in Chicago or NYC without air conditioning would not necessarily be fun, but I think DC would just be miserable.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2008, 07:52:27 PM »
In 1930 the population of DC was 487,000 and the population of New York was 6.9 million, Chicago 3.4 million, and Philadelphia 2.0 million.

Great stats, Bill.  I would only add that back then DC was probably even more deserted in the summer.

Surviving a summer in Chicago or NYC without air conditioning would not necessarily be fun, but I think DC would just be miserable.

Yes, very interesting stats.  But during the same period, to take two examples, the population of Tulsa was less than 140,000, while Wichita, KS, was about 110,000--but they have Southern Hills and Prairie Dunes.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2008, 09:18:40 PM »
Witchita has Prairie Dunes??  The Hutchison folks may have something to say about that!

JC

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2008, 11:04:04 PM »
In the 20s and 30s, the DC area held its own in quality golf. Ross's original Indian Spring was legendary; along Conn Ave was Kirkside, Chevy Chase and then Columbia; Flynn's Town and Country was about a mile away; Flynn's PGCC and Manor were high quality; Bannockburn may have been one of the most interesting given the severe topography; and in the 1920s, the US Publinx was held at East Potomac; and of course, Congressional, Burning Tree, and a more expansive Kenwood. Golfers must have thought the Potomac was a barrier. Why else would only 3 courses have been built in VA - Army-Navy, Washington G&CC, and Belle Haven? Anyway, real estate development affected many of these courses and it's arguable that what's been built since doesn't measure up in quality.


Paul,
I don't think real estate was the reason for the closure of the original PGCC. The clubhouse is still there and most of the land that held Flynn's holes is still open.  A couple of Flynn's greens still can be seen. I think the changing character of the neighborhood is what did it in.


Chip
If you've seen a course that covered both sides of River Road, it was probably Kenwood. The 9 holes on the south side of River Road were built over with real estate and the 9 on the north were supplemented by a couple holes on the same property and the rest on new land across Goldsboro Rd.  The current course is far more compact than the original.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2008, 11:10:10 PM »
Jonathan:
Just trying to pick the closest city of more than 100,000!  (Notice how I didn't go looking for Southampton's 1930 population.)

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2008, 09:42:40 PM »
In the DC/Baltimore area Baltimore CC/Five Farms is head and shoulders above all the others

I recently played Kenwood.  Neat little course, great family friendly club I would love to join when I find $65k in the couch cushions...anyway...on the wall in the hallway outside the bar is a huge areal picture from 1940 (I think). 

My Dad told me he joined Kenwood in 1968 for $1,500. I should know more about the history of Kenwood but growing up I didn't play golf so no interest in the history of the golf course. You are spot on that it's a "great family friendly club." The pool was great and I spent many winter Saturday mornings at the bowling alley. The only place I've seen duck pin bowling is at Kenwood, Columbia, and Congressional.

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2008, 12:08:13 PM »
Jonathan:

The new TPC at Avenel looks great.  Do you have any pictures for us?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2008, 12:55:07 PM »
Guys - I think Tom Doak nailed it on the head.

It's the climate.  Washington is smack dab in the bad part (Southern) part of the transition zone. 

"The transition zone encompasses an area roughly from Philadelphia, south to Richmond, Va. and west to St. Louis, excluding areas of high elevation. It is a region where the weather is extremely hot and humid in the summer, making it difficult to maintain consistently a quality turf which makes use of the cool season grasses (bentgrass or Kentucky bluegrass). Yet, it is too cold in the winter for the warm season grasses,
such as bermudagrass, to escape possible low temperature injury."

It's tough enough in Philly  -  I can't imagine how difficult the superintendant job would be in metro-DC.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2008, 04:58:04 PM »
JWinick - I do not have photos of Avenel.  Search their website and see what you can find.  JC

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2008, 11:54:10 PM »
Burning Tree should get more praise from what I hear. I am not sure what grass growing difficulty has to do with architecture. Baltimore CC is a great course almost as beloved as Tobacco Road by one of its members.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2008, 06:23:10 AM »
almost as beloved as Tobacco Road by one of its members.

Tiger!

LOL !!!

Chris Avore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2008, 10:46:50 AM »
JWinick - I do not have photos of Avenel.  Search their website and see what you can find.  JC

here's a resource:

http://www.tpcavenelupdate.com/currConditonsUpdates/currConditions_100907.php
------------------------------------------------------------------------
my photos from a few courses around the world:
http://flickr.com/photos/erova/collections/72157600394512195/

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2008, 05:52:30 PM »
Looks like mostly dirt.  I was out there today and Avenel is much further along than shown in those pictures.  JC

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2008, 09:59:46 PM »
Jonathon,

I know you have written on this and seen the layout but it looks a lot like the old course and the changes pretty minor!  Are they moving so much dirt and changing the bunkers that dramatically to make it seem like a new place?

Paul

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 06:33:45 AM »
Paul - are you a Washingtonian?  If you play Avenel next year when it re-opens I'd like to hear your retake on your "changes look minor" statement.  My take is that it has undergone a complete wiping of the old slate.  It is pretty much as profound a change as you can get while maintaining the old piece of real estate.  You can make your own call.

JC 

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 08:46:07 AM »
Looks like mostly dirt.  I was out there today and Avenel is much further along than shown in those pictures.  JC

That's because he gave you a link to an Oct, 2007 update.  Here's the latest, from a month ago:

http://www.tpcavenelupdate.com/currConditonsUpdates/golfcourseUpdate_060808.php

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 12:28:02 PM »
Jonathan,

I have read the article you wrote on as well as some of the others and when I looked at the renovation website I guess I expected to see more.  I know that it is virtually impossible to see the scale of the changes that are occurring on the ground. 

I am a local and I look forward to seeing the new Avenal....ops I mean the TPC Potomac at Avenel Farm. ::)

I really hope it is good.

Paul

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why doesn't Washington, DC have any (or more) great courses?
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 06:07:22 PM »
Paul - send me an email  golfguydz@aol.com.  JC

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