[Bart Bradley]

I have come to realize that on one of my home courses I have a very difficult time getting my approach shots close to the hole.  Only after 2 years of playing have I realized that at least part of the challenge lies in the way the fairways and greens cant.  On any given hole, they cant in the same direction...therefore, a slice lie approach shot is hit to a green with a slice slope.  Ideally, a right handed golfer would like to hit a draw into a green that slopes right to left to keep the ball from running away from the pin but the fairway cant makes this more difficult to perform.

Is canting the fairways and greens in the same direction a meaningful architectural device to add to the challenge of an approach shot?

Bart

[Philippe Binette]

definitely a architectural tool that is underuse but efficient when well done...

Garden City and Muirfield are two courses than uses that kind of subtle slope angle to create great golf holes....

but it's not flashy, dramatic, signature...

will let architects built 120 flashy bunkers or 7 lakes instead...it's all good for the game

[John Sheehan]

Is canting the fairways and greens in the same direction a meaningful architectural device to add to the challenge of an approach shot?

Bart

Most definitely.  I believe both Mackenzie and Ross wrote about this too.  As a corrollary of this, there is also the use of slopes and doglegs to encourage two different shape shots on the same hole - for instance a dogleg left that encouages a draw from the tee, and a canted green that invites a fade, and of course the opposite alternative.  I think it is a terrific use of natural terrain for strategic purposes. 

Locally, I reviewed Callippe Preserve in Pleasanton, CA and wrote about this exact phenomenom.  The first hole is a downhill dogleg left with a green guarding the inside of dogleg.  The fairway is canted in two directions.  The person who bales right on the tee shot is left with a downhill, sidehill lie that encourages a draw - but the green is canted from right (high) to left (low).  A shot that does not fade from the right side of the fairway is going to find it difficult to hold that green.   Conversely, a shot that hugs the fairway bunker left will not only find an excellent line of attack, but also a fairway cant that encourages a fade.  Wonderful hole on a terrific golf course designed by Brian Costello.

[Bart Bradley]

John:

Very interesting.  The course to which I referred was designed by Ellis Maples, a Ross disciple.  It really puts a premium on positioning and controlling your ball.

Bart

[John Sheehan]

John:

Very interesting.  The course to which I referred was designed by Ellis Maples, a Ross disciple.  It really puts a premium on positioning and controlling your ball.

Bart

Bart,
I have not had the opportunity to play many of Ellis Maples' courses.  The one I do remember playing was so long ago I can't remember much and I wasn't very savy about GCA at the time:  Coharie CC in Clinton, NC.  I know I enjoyed it.  We also played a Dan Maples course (Oyster Bay, I believe) on the same trip.  I enjoyed it and it's hard to forget those "tabby walls" he used in the construction.

John

[Ed Oden]

Bart:

No doubt canting fairways and greens in the same direction messes with your psyche and complicates the shot.  Oddly, for some reason I tend to do the opposite of what the cant would suggest (i.e., pulls from and a slice lie and pushes from a hook lie).  This often results in the worst of all outcomes; a shortsided downhill chip or pitch.

Your course certainly uses this feature to great effect, the 16th being the best example in my opinion.  I think the Flynn nines at Huntingdon Valley may utilize it even more.

Ed

[Bart Bradley]

Bart:

No doubt canting fairways and greens in the same direction messes with your psyche and complicates the shot.  Oddly, for some reason I tend to do the opposite of what the cant would suggest (i.e., pulls from and a slice lie and pushes from a hook lie).  This often results in the worst of all outcomes; a shortsided downhill chip or pitch.

Your course certainly uses this feature to great effect, the 16th being the best example in my opinion.  I think the Flynn nines at Huntingdon Valley may utilize it even more.

Ed

So Ed:

When you went to Huntingdon and all the front nine fairways canted in the same direction, did all the greens cant the same way too?

Bart

[Ed Oden]

So Ed:

When you went to Huntingdon and all the front nine fairways canted in the same direction, did all the greens cant the same way too?

Bart

The greens at HVCC pretty much either cant the same way as the fairway or back to front.  But I've only been there once and could easily be wrong.  Perhaps someone with greater exposure to the course could say for sure.

Actually, isn't it fairly rare to have a green cant the opposite direction from the fairway?  Although I'm sure there are many, I can't think of any good examples off the top of my head.  Opposite cants would seem to be a stark contrast from the natural flow of the land.

Ed

[Bart Bradley]

Ed:

I get your point, but I think a lot of courses are built to take the side to side cant out of the greens.  I can tell you that I can get my approaches a lot closer if the green is canted only front to back rather than side to side when I am playing from a sidehill lie.  16 at GGCC is a perfect example... it is very difficult to get a ball to stop near the pin because of the sidespin generally present when the ball hits the green.  Why aren't there more holes like that?

Bart

[Carl Nichols]

Isn't this the design feature that makes the 5th hole at Merion so great? 

[Garland Bayley]

How can this be an underutilized defense? It is the most natural way to build a golf hole. If the lands slopes in a particular direction, the fairway and green are most naturally going to slope in that direction creating the situation cited. I suspect a great minimalist would recognized this and mix it up by getting some holes to cross a ridge so the natural cant of the green is opposite of the natural cant of the fairway where the approach is hit from.

[Garland Bayley]

Isn't this the design feature that makes the 5th hole at Merion so great? 

I suspect if you build a course on limited real estate, you are going to get this characteristic a lot.

[Brent Hutto]

Our club has an Ellis Maples course c.1960 although there were some minor changes to the greens as part of a renovation a few years ago. It is Columbia Country Club located in Blythewood, SC. I can think of a couple of holes of the form Bart describes including the ninth (originally the eighteenth) where the fairway has a huge right-to-left slope while the green moves more subtly in that direction, aided by the prevailing grain in our hybrid Bermuda greens.

But I can also think of one hole (the sixteenth, originally seventh) which has an equally strong left-to-right canted fairway but that actually aids the golfer in getting to hole locations on the right side of the green tucked behind a large bunker. It's a quite long uphill two-shot hole and few players are hitting wedge or short iron approaches so especially for right-handers (I play lefty) I think the side slope is a mixed blessing. It will encourage a mid-iron fade that works the ball in behind the bunker but if you take too little club that fade will be directly into a deep bunker with not much green to work with. The one thing I don't like about the hole is that the fairway is more level for the last 150 yards or so which means longer hitters get a shorter short and a more level lie than those of us trying to get home with a fairway wood from a side slope.

Bart, which of his many courses are you describing?

[Bart Bradley]

Our club has an Ellis Maples course c.1960 although there were some minor changes to the greens as part of a renovation a few years ago. It is Columbia Country Club located in Blythewood, SC. I can think of a couple of holes of the form Bart describes including the ninth (originally the eighteenth) where the fairway has a huge right-to-left slope while the green moves more subtly in that direction, aided by the prevailing grain in our hybrid Bermuda greens.

But I can also think of one hole (the sixteenth, originally seventh) which has an equally strong left-to-right canted fairway but that actually aids the golfer in getting to hole locations on the right side of the green tucked behind a large bunker. It's a quite long uphill two-shot hole and few players are hitting wedge or short iron approaches so especially for right-handers (I play lefty) I think the side slope is a mixed blessing. It will encourage a mid-iron fade that works the ball in behind the bunker but if you take too little club that fade will be directly into a deep bunker with not much green to work with. The one thing I don't like about the hole is that the fairway is more level for the last 150 yards or so which means longer hitters get a shorter short and a more level lie than those of us trying to get home with a fairway wood from a side slope.

Bart, which of his many courses are you describing?

Grandfather Golf and CC -- his best work?

Bart

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