News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
where's Merion going tommorow?
« on: May 10, 2008, 11:03:13 PM »
....who's got its horns?

We have certainly learned enough about its birth.

How about its future?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 12:11:40 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2008, 12:55:33 PM »
"....who's got its horns?

We have certainly learned enough about its birth.

How about its future?"


PaulC:

That is a very good question and one many of us are extremely concerned about and into. We're trying to figure out various conspiracy scenarios of how to cut Fazio out of the deal and Merion East's future but the guy is made of some pretty slippery stuff and to date we haven't been able to catch him and lock him up so we can get a formal and legal restraining order on him from coming within 300 yards of Merion.

So your question about its future and who will be involved in it architecturally is a good one at this point. Do you want to get involved?

I think the only thing that Merion is sure of, at this point, about who will never have anything to do with Merion East is that group that Merion G.C. has recently been referring to as the "3-Ms" (Mucci, MacWood & Moriarty). The other day at the Baily Cup I heard the president and green chairman talking and they agreed those three don't know the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground!

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 01:50:23 PM »


Did Fazio and Marzolf help Merion or hurt Merion in getting the Open?
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 01:56:27 PM »
John,

Well, they got it, so how much could they have hurt?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Gosselin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 02:02:50 PM »


That's my point.


Tom, was bringing Fazio in a good decision, by the powers to be at Merion, in their quest for the Open? 

Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 02:42:07 PM »
I brought this up briefly on one of the Merion threads, but I recall Faz and Merion getting their chops busted a little bit when he did the bunker work, which leads to a few comments.

First, in looking for Allgate last night on Google (rather than asking that someone else do it for me, as some did ;)) I noted that the Merion East Bunkers looked a lot better than the Merion West from the air.  Not sure but I suspect its a post Faz photo there.  If not, then Wilson didn't use the same flair in the West bunkers. If so, then it was clear how much the great shapes of the famous "White faces of Merion" had simplified over time. 

Certainly, bunker rebuilding was neccessary if you comare the two courses and East was similar.  I recall some thinking it wasn't truly necessary, but I think MCC made the right call.

Second, there was some discussion of why Merion chose to restore to 1930 rather than original concept.  From those discussions, its clear that the 1912 original version wasn't as good, since it was rebuilt (at least 7 holes) by 1916 and more or less continuously until 1925 or so.  Not as practical to rebuild to original design either, since holes would have to cross a very much busier Ardmore Ave. 

I think a good "original intent" thread might be had here, unless we just credit the committee with needing to take longer to get it right :) than a professional gca might.

Lastly, there was much gnashing of teeth over just built photos of those bunkers. They didn't look great then, but we were told they would soften, which they have.  Recent photos (including those from the air) do look good and I haven't heard of any complaints about the play of the bunkers.

It seems Merion got the work right.

Not sure what I am trying to say here, other than Merion has sure been a hot button on this board as long as I have been here. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2008, 05:55:55 PM »

That is a very good question and one many of us are extremely concerned about and into.

We're trying to figure out various conspiracy scenarios of how to cut Fazio out of the deal and Merion East's future but the guy is made of some pretty slippery stuff and to date we haven't been able to catch him and lock him up so we can get a formal and legal restraining order on him from coming within 300 yards of Merion.

So your question about its future and who will be involved in it architecturally is a good one at this point. Do you want to get involved?

I think the only thing that Merion is sure of, at this point, about who will never have anything to do with Merion East is that group that Merion G.C. has recently been referring to as the "3-Ms" (Mucci, MacWood & Moriarty).

The other day at the Baily Cup I heard the president and green chairman talking and they agreed those three don't know the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground!

I'm sure that the President and Green Chairman are very astute gentlemen, well versed in architecture, golf, golf history and the play of the game.

But, if I recall correctly Tom MacWood discovered, or made it known that George Crump commited suicide and didn't die as a result of an abscessed tooth which is the story that had been perpetuated for 80+ years.

And, that David Moriarty seems to have debunked the widely accepted and perpetuated myth that Wilson spent 7 months studying the great courses of the UK PRIOR to designing Merion.

As for me, I don't know much, but at least I know not to keep all those rolls of toilet paper next to the rabbit holes at Featherfield Farms, as you do. ;D
[/color]


TEPaul

Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2008, 10:18:27 PM »
"I'm sure that the President and Green Chairman are very astute gentlemen, well versed in architecture, golf, golf history and the play of the game.
But, if I recall correctly Tom MacWood discovered, or made it known that George Crump commited suicide and didn't die as a result of an abscessed tooth which is the story that had been perpetuated for 80+ years."

Pat:

Tom MacWood most certainly did make it known to everyone including the club that George Crump didn't die as a result of a tooth abscess which was the story of his death for over 80 years. However, the rumor that he shot himself had been around for a long, long time, and probably from the date of that unfortunate event. I heard about that suicide rumor maybe 25 years ago and I asked my old friend, John Ott about it and he said he'd heard the rumor for decades that he shot himself in his cabin at PVGC. So, having it proved by Tom MacWood most certainly was not something that Pine Valley and/or people that knew the club well were not aware of the possibility of.

The foregoing is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth but something tells me a guy like you on here will question the validity of it anyway. And that's too bad because I could have confirmed it by asking any of you to call John Ott and ask him about it because he probably heard that rumor thirty years before I did. But the irony and tragedy of it all is John is gone now too.

If you still question the validity of that rumor around Pine Valley after I explained what I just did above I can do nothing more than to take that for what I really believe it is!

The point of all this is that rumor of Crump's suicide was around Pine Valley for many, many years and obviously juxtaposed with the story that he died from poison to the brain from a tooth abscess. The additional point is since those two stories of the cause of his death resided side by side around Pine Valley for many, many years can only tell me that if ANYONE from Pine Valley really had wanted to know the truth of it, it would have been no problem whatsoever for them to go and find out. But they never did go and find out obviously because no one from the club really wanted to know that he may've committed suicide.

Nevertheless, it was proved by a man from another state who'd never been to Pine Valley, who knew know one from Pine Valley, and never even asked the club if they'd mind if he investigated the real cause of Crump's death and when he proceeded to try to do that never even bothered to tell them he was attempting to do that.

When he decided to put his findings on this website without ever mentioning anything about it to Pine Valley, it was me who arranged to have him email his article to John Ott who took it from his house on the 9th hole down to the clubhouse and gave it to them. Shortly thereafter the president of the club took it into a board meeting and explained to them the absolute truth of the way George Crump died from Tom MacWood's article---eg by a gunshot to the head!

That is the entire story of it all from my perspective. I'm a big fan of Truth as it pertains to these kinds of things but I'm also, either fortunately or unfortunately, a fan of respecting certain things about the histories of clubs, and about clubs themselves and even if I think Tom MacWood did a good job with his essay on and exposing Crump's suicide, I will never endorse the manner in which he went about it and I will never forgive him for that manner he went about it. I think the manner he went about it showed a lack of respect and consideration for the club and probably a real lack of respect and consideration for the sensibilities of numerous members. I think he went about it in nothing much more than a self-serving way and self-promoting way that in no way took into consideration what the club's feelings were or would be, and for that reason I think MacWood exhibits what I would consider to be a certain lack of class!

Matter of fact, perhaps five or six years before MacWood wrote his article and began research on the cause of Crump's death, I had this very same conversation about the rumor of a Crump's suicide with Geoff Shackelford. He told me he became aware of the rumor from a magazine article. He spoke to me a bit about possibly writing an article about it. I asked him if he decided to consider such a thing if he would get in touch with the club first. He told me he didn't really know what he would do about that. We then discussed that if he did get in touch with the club first and they asked him not to do it what he would do. He said he didn't know but of course he also mentioned that if he really wanted to do it they really couldn't stop him. Geoff Shackelford never did do that article on Crump's death as we all know. For that I feel he exhibited a commendable amount of class.

If you don't believe what I just told you above about those discussions with Geoff, unlike John Ott, he is very much alive and you can feel free to call him or email him and ask him about it if you don't want to take my word for it.


TEPaul

Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2008, 10:34:05 PM »
"And, that David Moriarty seems to have debunked the widely accepted and perpetuated myth that Wilson spent 7 months studying the great courses of the UK PRIOR to designing Merion."

Pat:

Although I wouldn't say, at this point, that Moriarty has proved that the widely accepted and perpetuated myth that Wilson spent seven months studying the great courses in the UK PRIOR to designing Merion, he very well may've done that, and if so, that is pretty impressive and of course Merion would be extremely willing to know that and amend their history accordingly.

While that has probably not been proven yet, one thing that I believe (and I think Merion now certainly believes and accepts) is Hugh Wilson really did almost go down on the Titanic which heretofore was included in one history book (Tolhurst's 1989 edition) as a "romantic story".

Very interestingly, and for reason's I can't explain, the mention of that "romantic story" of Wilson almost going down on the Titanic on his return home after his 1910 trip abroad was removed.

So, proof of the fact of Wilson's 1912 trip abroad certainly was something that Merion had and that was an impressive find on Moriarty's part (through ship manifest searches).

However, Moriarty, for whatever reason, decided to carry on and also try to prove that because Wilson may not have gone abroad in 1910 that must mean that C.B. Macdonald must have routed and designed Merion East because Hugh Wilson was not capable of doing it.

That notion and that conclusion is pretty much dead now and once we've produced some additional supporting research it will be!

But the reason for the story in Merion's history books that Wilson went abroad in 1910 and for seven months remains unresolved. Moriarty has not proved he did not go abroad in 1910 (even if HE may think he has). Perhaps, in not too long a time we finally will prove that seven months trip abroad in 1910 either did or did not happen!  ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 10:38:23 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2008, 11:38:53 PM »
Jeff,

I knew where Allgates was.   I was asking David to tell us because it is clear it was the crown jewel sitting above the planned estate houses along the inner side of the Merion golf course "L".   I was essentially asking him if he saw any relevance to the fact that a man like Lloyd would buy the Allgates property in 1910, and then buy up the adjoining land, and be part of a Site Committee who recommended the surrounding property to Merion for their new course! 

Hell, Jeff...I'm the guy who posted the old aerial of Allgates! 

As regards Fazio's bunker work, I believe it's a long dead issue, but if you believe that they are either historically accurate or functionally accurate, I would clearly disagree, although I am glad to hear that they look better from the air.   ;D

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: where's Merion going tommorow?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2008, 11:50:26 PM »
IMHO, I think Fazio is the last guy in the world I would want working on a classic course based on his track record with them in the past. I respect his abilities and enjoy the ones I have played of his (original designs), but I don't care for his attitude about the golden age courses.

Jeff,

  Because they "got it" doesn't mean it didn't hurt. You know as well as I do what has been done to America's classic courses in the name of competition. It's good if they wanted a major. It's bad because they (USGA, PGA) don't realize that there are others that can deliver the goods and not muck up what was there before and hand back the course to the membership in the way that it was found, or at least the way the design was intended to be.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 11:56:36 PM by David Stamm »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

wsmorrison

Re: where's Merion going tommorow? New
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2008, 07:20:33 AM »
I would like to clarify something about Wilson's 1912 trip and offer a perspective.  While the traditional story is that Wilson went to the UK in 1910 to study courses prior to the design and construction of Merion's East Course, nobody around here ever maintained that it was his only trip abroad. 

For many years, a number of us knew that Wilson traveled in 1912 and that he nearly sailed on the Titanic (although Tolhurst got the year wrong in his history).  In fact, an Aug. 7, 1981 letter from Wilson's daughter, Louise Wilson Russell, mentioning the trip was the basis for Tolhurst's tale.  In that same letter she mistakenly mentioned Hugh Wilson was born in West Philadelphia, however we've known for many years that he was born in Trenton, NJ.  This letter has been cited by Merion as early as January 3, 1982.  A copy of the letter has been in the Club files ever since.  It is one of the earliest items I came across when I first started my inquiries.

The same "historians" that doubt magazine and newspaper articles as not being reliable, disregard that caution when it comes to the Golf Monthly article discussing Wilson's visit in 1912.  I have no doubt that Wilson went overseas in 1912 and he studied golf courses.  That was an excellent find by MacWood regardless of when it was located.  I appreciate David bringing it to our attention.  I also believe that at this point, it has not been established that Wilson did not go to the UK prior to 1912.  That is hard to prove, but the timeline still allows that possibility.

Fortunately, a complete collection of Golf Monthly editions still exist (starting in 1911) and the editor has kindly offered to have someone on his staff research my requests.  The results were few.  While they have been sent, they have not yet arrived.  So we'll see what more there is to consider from this source in subsequent editions since Macdonald was to include hole principles in later editions.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 08:54:34 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back