Pacifc Dunes & Pebble Beach - Opening Stretches

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Stan and I get along just fine as well.  In fact we won a match together quite recently.

So, to each his own re all of this.  Say you prefer the course for whatever reason, and I likely stay quiet and let it be.  Say it's NOT EVEN CLOSE, about any stretch of the course, and well.... that to me invites comment.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I've never figured out why there is no love for #18 at PD. Its a great hole with plenty of strategy and risk/reward.  I wouldn't change a thing on it.

As to Mr. Hendrens query, I would put any par 5 at Pacific up against #2 at Pebble. 

Kalen - Let's leave it at this.  It's probably personal.  After posting 4 in my first round at #18 to finish 39 on the back side, I've found the risk to be much greater than the reward.  I've posted multiple double-digit scores to finish rounds and the hole has kept me out of the 80s a fair share of time.  Please note that when I say one of my least favorites on the course - if you've read anything I've posted on this thread - you will realize that I've got nothing but love for the whole course including 18.  There's got to be a least favorite everywhere.  It's all relative.

Stan - You and I will get along just fine.

Tim,

I can't argue that the hole won't have an adverse effect on the scorecard, but if you take a Shivas like approach and forget about numbers and just take the hole in, it really is a fantastic hole.

With the massive fairway bunkering, angles off the tee, played between two big dunes, and the green that slopes away from the approach, its got a lot going on.

I'll have to join in when you take your next trip and I can point out the finer things on the hole and I'll get you to tear up that scorecard.    

[Mike Hendren]

Tim,

Even though you are a young knucklehead I feel you're entitled to my Ran-Match Play between PD and PB so here goes:

1.  Halved
2.  Halved (I like PB's 2nd much more than most)
3.  Halved  (before PB added the right side fairway bunkers)
4.  Pacific
5.  Pacific
6.  Halved
7.  Pebble
8.  Pebble
9.  Pebble
10. Pebble
11. Pacific
12. Halved
13. Pacific
14. Pebble
15. Halved (pre-fairway bunker)
16. Pebble
17. Pebble
18. Pebble

Pebble wins 4 up.  Recent changes could cut that to a 2 up victory.

I would also add that I believe Pebble's routing and hole sequence is superior.

Mike

[Tim Bert]

I'll have to join in when you take your next trip and I can point out the finer things on the hole and I'll get you to tear up that scorecard.    

Believe me.  I usually end up tearing the scorecard after posting a score on #18!  Probably not in the same sense that you mean.

I think the bunkering is really cool, both the fairway stuff and the greenside stuff.  It just wears you down over time.

As for the next trip out, we usually go in the odd years but may defer 2009 to 2010, pending new course opening.  We like to go in late June.  It's a little expensive, but near lock on no rain and we usually get in 54 holes at least one of the days.  Plenty of daylight.

[Tim Bert]

Tim,

Even though you are a young knucklehead I feel you're entitled to my Ran-Match Play between PD and PB so here goes:

1.  Halved
2.  Halved (I like PB's 2nd much more than most)
3.  Halved  (before PB added the right side fairway bunkers)
4.  Pacific
5.  Pacific
6.  Halved
7.  Pebble
8.  Pebble
9.  Pebble
10. Pebble
11. Pacific
12. Halved
13. Pacific
14. Pebble
15. Halved (pre-fairway bunker)
16. Pebble
17. Pebble
18. Pebble

Pebble wins 4 up.  Recent changes could cut that to a 2 up victory.

I would also add that I believe Pebble's routing and hole sequence is superior.

Mike

Well at least you have the good sense that Tom lacks in order to recognize that PD #5 is a superior hole to PB #5.  That's a start.

I still can't get past:
1. PD
2. PD (I liked PB #2 way more than I expected based on what I had read and heard, but PD#2 is fantastic)
3. PD
4. PD
5. PD
6. PD

I'm still not ready to reveal the rest, but it isn't enough to overcome the starting deficit.

I look forward to pointing out how VLC North is also superior to Pebble Beach in a couple of weeks!

[Rich Goodale]

Tim

1.  PD
2.  PD
3.  PB (PD highly overrated)
4.  Halved (both great golf holes, in their own ways)

As I haven't played the new 5th at PB I'll stop there, but I will say that PD struggles significantly on the 6-11 stretch, makes some back on 12-15, but only holds its own on 16-18.

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

I'm liking the heavy hitters on my side here.   

In any case, like we've concluded before, if you really can with a straight face make that 6-0 in favor of PD, then we truly do have little to discuss.  Nevertheless it is kind of fun talking around each other!

TH

[Tim Bert]

Not sure why it is far-fetched. At least one of your big hitters has conceded a tie or loss on each hole except for 6. I could see 6-0 or 4-0-2 or 3-3 for that matter. Can't see worse than that. For me it is a sweep. But I'm always open to opposing opinions.

[Bart Bradley]

What if you guys compared the par 3s in order, then the par 4s, then the par fives...maybe give one bonus point for the opening and closing holes since they may have more impact on your perception...?  I don't think strictly going numeric hole vs. numeric hole is as meaningful.  It seems silly to me ....number 8 at Pebble shouldn't just be 1up..it may be one of the best holes in the world...

Baseball analogy:  If one batter hits .300 but homers every time he gets a hit, and another batter hits .320 but only singles...you can't make me think the singles hitter is the better batter.

Pebble Beach has more home runs!

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

George Peper made this comparison in LINKS Magazine a few years back.  Pebble is his favorite course in the world, and has been for many years, but if I recall correctly he gave Pacific Dunes wins in the first four holes, Pebble everything from there through ten, Pacific Dunes everything from 11 through 16 (except maybe 14, because I think he had them tied in the end), and Pebble the last two.  So Tim is not out there all alone, anyway.

I would never even bother trying to make the case that my course is BETTER than Pebble Beach, because even if I succeeded in my own mind, I'm a biased source as far as anyone else is concerned.  But the fact that there are people (and magazines) out there who try to make the case on Pacific Dunes' behalf, is a win in my book ...

And besides, I don't have to compete for jobs with Jack Neville, or all the other guys who helped him get his course right!

Thanks, Tim, and now you can move on to something more important!

T

[Tim Bert]

Bart - Both courses have several that could be considered amongst the best in the world.  I know the hole by hole in numerical order isn't the appropriate way to evaluate two couses against one another.  There really isn't an appropriate way.  The reason I was doing hole by hole is that I was just pondering opening stretches of these two courses the other day.

I'm working on my personal match play of trying to match up holes that make sense to go against one another.  I'm playing around with it and will post the results when I'm done.  Not because I want others to see what I think but because I'd like to see others make similar comparisons and take a look at their conclusions.

Tom D - I don't have anything more important to do.   

I know there isn't a right answer, but one of the ways that I make up for all the lost money from playing these expensive courses is to reflect on the courses night and day.  If I take all the money I've spent on these courses and then divide that money over all the hours of thought and daydreaming I put into them, it feels a lot cheaper than that same money spread over 4 hours (or 5 in the case of Pebble!  )  Really, though, I just like hearing other people's detailed thought process on some of these hole by hole comparisons.  For me it isn't always about who wins, but what's going on in other people's minds.

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