[Kalen Braley]

Bob mentions a great point, they are sometimes hard to see and distingusih between the colors...

But other than that, I'm not seeing the problem with color coded flags.  Red, white, and blue may be ugly, but at least its patriotic.  Cause remember, if you don't support our nations colors, then you don't support the troops...didn't George W say that once??   

Seriously though, there are bigger ugly fish to fry on the course like those ugly cart paths, McMansions, funky colored golf bags, and most of all your partners 70's style Johnny Miller plaid pants, etc.   

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm for no flags....no yardage markers....no nothing....but I'm in a select few from the stone age

most players won't except this today

this being said the easiest on the maintenance staff....pro shop....for my money ....  is the front middle back rotation scenario

or is that middle ...back ...front....?

[Tim Gavrich]

Whatever happened to the mystery and intrigue of golf course architecture?  To borrow a line from Eric Pevoto, what do you want, big arrows painted on the course at various places to "help you navigate".

I've yet to meet an architect that likes things like multi-colored flags to describe hole position.   To me, it cheapens the experience.

What if the only way to get any kind of grip on the hole location is by running up to a green 150+ yards away and surveying, then going all the way back to your ball?  That certainly wouldn't encourage a quicker pace of play.

I personally believe that all that the golfer should be given should be whether the pin is in the front, middle, or rear third of the green.  That way, in the possible absence of any other way to divine the hole location, the player can at least have the opportunity to be rewarded with a reasonable putt after a well-executed shot.

Say what you want about clever deception in architecture.  If the architect tricks 10 out of 10 players into thinking the hole is 20 yards closer to them than it really is and all 10 players hit good shots and get no reward, I would argue that that is more of an obnoxious thumbing of the nose by the architect than "good architecture."  If the main defense of a hole is completely fooling those who play it, it seems a bit of a gyp because not even well-executed shots will be rewarded.  Rather, a golfer who skulls a ball apparently 20 yards past the hole and ends up next to it makes out better than the golfer who executes a shot to a spot on the green that all factors told him housed the hole location.

Now, if that same golfer is able to know what depth-wise third of the green on which the pin was located, then the genius of the architect becomes the ability to make the golfer second-guess himself.  That, I believe, is a much higher virtue in golf course architecture than the mere impish deception that renders the golfer helpless.

Do I want to make it so that every little detail about the hole location is revealed o me before I ever begin to ponder the shot?  Absolutely not.  Furthermore, I think that range finders should never be allowed in competitive golf.  I should have to use my brain on a golf shot, but I should not be expected to employ some sixth sense in order to determine a hole location when there aren't clues about it that would not take a major stoppage of play to procure.  I'm not asking for much...

[Jacob Erisman]

Flagsticks are one of many elements that can add charm to a course (ex: Merion, Friar’s Head). It seems like today however that flags at just about every course look the same (bunker rakes too). I wish more courses would break away from the redundant flagstick size and form and implement new and creative types of flags. Is there some sort of USGA regulation for flagstick height and flag size that I don't know about?

By having the 3-color system, a club is passing on the opportunity to set itself apart from the 90% of courses that do have color-coded flags and it's taking away the challenge of relying on depth perception and feel. Also, I’m sure that most of the members that are complaining don’t have precise enough distance control for it to even matter whether or not they know where the pin is. It might even help them if they just go for the middle of the green every time. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Tim,
All valid points...  But do you need that kind of precision for a routine round?

You're a good golfer and play in tournaments - you have tee sheets, and that's appropriate.  But do you really need that when you're out playing with friends for fun or friendly competition?

[Dan Herrmann]

Jacob - flagsticks are supposed to be 7' in length.

[Eric Pevoto]

Dan,

No fair dredging up green committee meetings four years past!

Two things:  1) As Pat Mucci and Dan said, the vast majority of golfers lack the wherewithal to hit the green, let alone "dial it in" to a specific yardage.  Hard to listen to a 15 handicap whine about pin placements when, on a good day, they might hit 8-9 greens.

2)  Particularly at a private club, but the same could be said about munis, daily fee, etc. (anything but perhaps a resort or destination course) local knowledge should be rewarded.  If a green is angled or has distinct features the knowledgeable golfer can gain a good idea of depth by looking at the left/right position of the flag.

Daily pin sheets, whiffle balls on the flagstick, colored flags.  I give that a Wardian puhleeze!

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim,
All valid points...  But do you need that kind of precision for a routine round?

You're a good golfer and play in tournaments - you have tee sheets, and that's appropriate.  But do you really need that when you're out playing with friends for fun or friendly competition?

Dan--

I suppose "precision" is a widely relative term.  One-third of the depth of a roughly average-sized green green--say, 27 yards deep--is still about nine or ten yards.  That doesn't include information about where the pin is going left-to-right.  All I'm looking for is whether that pin is in the front nine (yards), middle nine, or back nine.  That is just enough information for me to have at least some idea of what clubs I might consider hitting.  I still have to figure everything else out; things that are within my ability to perceive.  I maintain the architecture is preserved under that (very small) concession to the player.

Almost any time I play a round of golf, I'm trying to shoot the lowest score I can.  If it's a "friendly competition" or "fun" round, I'd still like to have the ability to know roughly, *not "exactly" or "precisely"* where (depthwise ONLY; widthwise and everything else is my responsibility alone) on the green the flagstick sits.  I just don't think that that slight bit of information is corrosive of the principles of the game at large; perhaps it will be the case that we agree to disagree on that matter.

Cheers.

--Tim

[Craig Sweet]

One color flags...no pin sheets....no range finders, limited yardage markers...figure it out, and besides, you are not so good that you need EXACT measurements/locations/distances....

[Doug Siebert]

The courses around here all use the color coded flags...

What do you guys mean by pinsheets?  Do you mean the type the pros get that show exactly the number of yards from the front/back and right/left edges so you can calculate the distance to the yard?  Or are you talking about the thing often used at resort courses where the green is sliced up into 6 or 9 sections and there's a sign by the first tee saying "today's pin position is 4" and you look at the map for each hole on the scorecard to see what part of the green position 4 is.  I think that's fine though for regular play I think it would diminish the variety somewhat if everytime I get the front right pin on #1 I get the back left pin on #2 if those sections are both #4 on the green map.

[Tony Petersen]

At my club back in Minnesota, we have cherry trees planted at 150 on the 4's & 5's and one color flags with no pin sheets... Brilliant!

[Andrew Mitchell]

For the last couple of years we have used colour coded flags, as we have quite a few skyline greens.  Red for the front third, yellow for middle and white for the back third.  The colour matches the order of the tees (red for ladies, yellow for daily play and white for competitions).

We used to have a pin chart system on the scorecard with the greens divided into quarters and the number of the relevant quarter posted on the board outside the pro shop.  Unfortunately there seemed to be a regular breakdown in communication between the greenkeeper and the pro with the result that if the board said the hole on number 1 was cut in area 4 you know exactly where it wasn't cut

Like others I question whether this information is of benefit to the average club golfer.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Mike,
One thing to remember, they are always going to whine…some will complain about the single color, and some will complain that you don’t need to do it and one color is fine. Just look at the responses here; if this was your membership someone is going to think your wrong no matter what you do. Just do what you think is right, in concert with your super as he has to make it happen, and then play golf with ear plugs.

Three color flags is not hard to do. You get a flag stick carrier for your cart and just put ‘em in where they need to be. I am not a fan of 6-6-6 or sequencing the same all the way around. Is it really that big a deal if it’s 5-7-6…or 8-4-6…???

IMO, by far the best course set-up program is using a knowledgeable person to cut holes who plays golf and understands how weather changes play of the course. I’m not a fan of some sort of regimented program that means I end up with front pins to down wind holes with greens that slope front to back or something similar. I’m not saying set it up easy, but sensible does make it more enjoyable.

BTW, pin sheets are a pain, but I know some clubs need to feel like the tour is there daily, pin sheets, painted cups...

[Joe Hancock]

Rich,

But could it also give a prostate exam?

Probably with more dexterity than my doctor. I do cut him some slack though, as he tends to somehow give me a hip exam simultaneously, thereby saving me time and money.......he's also is on the cheap with the disposable blindfolds....

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Here at Kiawah Island Golf Resort, we've divided each green into 6 quadrants.  We have a pin sheet that each caddie carries and is posted on each of our carts where each quadrant is numbered one to six.  On the first tee, we have a post with that day's pin number.  If for example, if the day's pin number is 1, you look at the pin sheet for "1" and it will show you what quadrant the pin on that hole is located.  it works quite well...

[Kalen Braley]

Here at Kiawah Island Golf Resort, we've divided each green into 6 quadrants.  We have a pin sheet that each caddie carries and is posted on each of our carts where each quadrant is numbered one to six.  On the first tee, we have a post with that day's pin number.  If for example, if the day's pin number is 1, you look at the pin sheet for "1" and it will show you what quadrant the pin on that hole is located.  it works quite well...

Mike,

Thats some amazing geometry/mathwork to get 6 quadrants out of a total possible of 4.    

I've used pin sheets more than a few times and IMO they are a hassle.  Whether its on your cart, or folded up in your back pocket, just seems like one more thing to have to fool with.  Just put up a color scheme on the flags and be done with it.

[Mike McGuire]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

We decided to live with the single color flags and did not propose any new solution.

Talked to a 25 handicap who wondered why the hell anyone would care where the pin was.

Played yesterday with a 6 time club champion who didn't even use yardages. He thought it was more fun to use your judgement.  

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