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Peter Flory

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2020, 01:53:24 PM »
Mark - I don't know if that's true or not, but a question to you:
of all the great courses you've played, which one(s) featured a Par 5 that was your favourite hole on that particular course? In other words, who could build -- at least once -- a Par 5 that was better than every other hole on the golf course?
I think maybe that's a good test/guide for which architect built the best Par 5s.
[I'm not well travelled at all, but for me there is only one Par 5 that I've ever thought was the best & my favourite hole on the course, ie the 8th at Crystal Downs. Dr. Mac.]
P


This is a very interesting question- could have been a thread of its own.  Which courses out there have a par 5 as their best hole?

It is amazingly difficult to find any.

I grew up near Travis Pointe CC outside of Ann Arbor and their signature hole was the par 5 4th.  Fully wooded hole that starts descending on the 2nd shot and the green lies over a creek- think 15 at Augusta. 

It's the course where they played the Volvik Championship from '16-'18- LPGA event. 

Other than that, I'm not sure that I can name a course where a par 5 is thought of as the best hole.  Plenty of courses where they are highly regarded (like the 13th at Lawsonia), but still not THE best. 

Garland Bayley

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2020, 02:36:28 PM »
Peter,

How about ANGC 13?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Flory

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2020, 02:52:17 PM »
Well yeah, there's that.

Pebble Beach has a pretty nice one too.  Interestingly, both of these holes are relatively flat and involve significant use of water hazard. 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 02:54:45 PM by Peter Flory »

Michael Wolf

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2020, 07:21:18 PM »
I'd add Jack Nicklaus as the other architect who comes to my mind for his par fives. Example #1 is Shoal Creek, where it wouldn't be a stretch to say the 4 best holes are the 4 par fives. Other Nicklaus designs where the p5's stand out as highlights would be Desert Highlands and Muirfield Village. Although at Muirfield Village I think the 15th has been badly butchered with each successive change.


Some other well known courses were imo the best holes are par 5's:


Long Cove, Blackwolf Run and Pebble Beach as already mentioned.
Muirfield
Augusta National - the 8th is always underrated
RM West - I'm assuming 15 is always considered a P5?
Kawana
Peninsula Kingswood North
Kapalua
East Lake
Sand Valley
I'll add that Tom's new Gunnamatta course at the National in Australia. Some good honest 3 shot-ers that grew on me with each replay
And finally, they never seem to get mentioned when people make these lists, but I think the 5th and 14th on the Old Course are among its greatest holes.


Michael










JC Urbina

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2020, 02:56:15 PM »

Mark,


I was searching for a quote that I thought was applicable to this thread.



“The medium of the artist is paint, and he becomes its master;
but the medium of the golf architect is the surface of the earth over
which the forces of Nature alone are master”.
                                                                                        Max Behr


The reason I brought this up,  every artist and golf architect ( builder) as Pete would always say looked at his or her craft a little different.

Pete chose to use paint ( the stick routing ) to create his masterpiece at the TPC Sawgrass.  Other builders choose nature to create theirs. One doesn't define mastery any more than the other. We all choose to do it in a different way.  Par 5s on a flat site allow you to paint away to your hearts content.  Natural contours on wonderful pieces of land don't always allow for creative solutions to a long linear design.

When I first toured the Holyoke property , which would soon become Ballyneal with Rupert O'Neal, we toured for hours as I have said several times on this site.  Ironically, one of the first holes I spotted in its virgin landform was a long valley headed to the south.  I looked up that valley and said to Rupert, if you build just one hole this valley would be the ideal spot.  People wouldn't believe that they are in eastern Colorado.  The hole would end up being a par 5 from the point where I stood to a green nestled in the dunes up this gorgeous valley.  The features located within this valley were a perfect blend of strategy as it relates to a fun three shot hole.

Bill and Ben chose to use works of nature at the Sand Hills in a little different way then Pete, their 16h hole at SH is a study in nature and the use of it for this wonderful three shot hole. The same could be said for the first hole. But you must know both of these holes at the SH start atop a high dune so that you never lose site of the hole in its entirety.  Prairie Dunes 7th hole is another wonderful par 5 hole. Nature at its finest with strategy abundant in this three shot hole for the average member.

Pete knew what he wanted, he simply painted until he achieved the outcome that he desired, he was true artist - builder.  he said to me several times over a course project, lets play with it ( the land) awhile" and he certainly did. 

Pete was the true master of his time.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 06:47:16 PM by JC Urbina »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2020, 04:35:16 PM »
Jim,
I think your explanation makes sense.  Pete used “A LOT’ of paint as we both know.  He didn’t have the luxury (or burden) depending on how you want to look at it, of beautiful “natural” features to deal with on many of his sites.  If Pete wanted to design a great par five, he didn’t need to find it, he just built it.  Having said all this, would you agree that over the course of their careers, no one built more great par fives than Pete Dye? 
Mark

Ira Fishman

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2020, 06:18:46 PM »
Mark isn't wrong,
Here is a list of some of the best holes on Dye courses that are the par 5's
  • Kiawah 11
  • Whistling Straits 11
  • PDGC 5
  • Sawgrass 9, 11
  • Blackwolf Run 8, 11, 16
  • Bulle Rock 2
Blackwolf Run River is definitely a contender for course with best par 5's in the world.


I agree with Blackwolf Run and it’s spectacular par 5s. 16 at the River is my favorite par 5 I’ve ever played. The meadows valley also has some good 5 pars. That being said I think the par 3s are the weakest part of the River course.


Steven Blake


I agree both that the Par 5s at Blackwolf River are terrific and that the Par 3s not nearly as strong. On the whole, as I have asserted here before, it is a woefully under regarded course. The Par 4s are wonderfully varied, and the use of the river without impossible forced carries is a study in great design. And Number 5 by itself deserves a spot in the pantheon of holes. There is a recent thread about being able to remember courses. My memory has become less reliable with age and bourbon, but River remains remarkably clear after two plays over 25 years ago.


Ira

JC Urbina

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2020, 12:27:51 AM »
Mark,




I would say he was one of the best, I am not sure that Pete intended to be known for that.


He certainly realized that in the scope of a routing that  the Par 5's gave him the best chance to change the angle several times over.  Look at 9-11 and 16 at Sawgrass from an aerial image   Look how many times he changed the angle of attack.  He disguised it with waste areas, lake lines and tree lines.  The same can be said for the 11th and 16th at Kiawah constantly changing the angle.


It shows his willingness to maximize the X factor.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 12:34:52 AM by JC Urbina »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Pete Dye - The “builder” of the best par fives!
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2020, 01:16:36 AM »
IRA,


I agree with your comments about Blackwolf Run. The Par 3s are ok. Just ok. But, the Par 5s are special and there are quite a few very good Par 4s.


Oh, this is a little bit crazy, but the course seemed a nice playground for dinosaurs.
Tim Weiman

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