[JMorgan]

How is the distribution of an architect's best holes a measure of his merits?

If we were all to agree upon the best 18 holes of each of the architects discussed on this site, how would we measure one architect against another?

For example, using AW Tillinghast as our lamb and TD's list of Tillie's best holes from the Confidential Guide, we have an interesting spread:

  1 4 Winged Foot W
  2 4 SFGC
  3 3 Somerset Hills
  4 5 Bethpage Black
  5 4 Bethpage Black
  6 4 Quaker Ridge
  7 3 SFGC
  8 4 Sleepy Hollow
  9 5 SFGC
10 3 Winged Foot W
11 4 Quaker Ridge
12 5 Ridgewood
13 3 Winged Foot E
14 4 Somerset Hills
15 4 Winged Foot W
16 4 SFGC
17 5 Batusrol Lower
18 4 Philadelphia CC

= 10 courses represented

Could you say that an architect is more meritorious to some degree by the quality of best holes spread across more courses?

Pick an 18 best for one or more of the architects in Ran's architecture timeline or anyone else you want to discuss. 

Compare your 18 and share with the group an analysis of that course with an 18 best course of another architect. 

How do they differ or how are they similar?

What features characterize your architect's best holes?  How do they distribute across the architect's total number of courses?

Do you see any trends, f.i., in a particular state or region?  on private vs. public courses? better one-shot vs. three-shot?  particular feature characterizing the best hole?

Is there an architect(s) for whom a majority of best holes are found on one or two courses who could still be considered superior to others because he got a great piece of property or merely excelled on one course beyond even his own high standards?

Is there an architect(s) whose honorable mention holes equal or better the best holes of other architects?

Architect(s) for whom it is most difficult to produce a list of best 18?

[Mike Nuzzo]

That list isn't just his best holes, but a list that tally a par 72.

Wouldn't mackenzie be hurt because so many of his best holes are at cypress, augusta, royal melbourne.
They just happen to be 3 of the best.

not to shoot holes in your interesting theorem.... 

There is no way I could analyze someones work - maybe Pete Dye.

Casa, Sawgrass, Kiawah, The Golf Club
I don't know how to rank his best holes that I've seen.
That would take me a while - frankly they all seem a little similar
Maybe I'll use my new book to help me refresh my memory....

Cheers

[Kyle Harris]

Wouldn't this imply some sort of comprehensive knowledge of the architect's work?

With someone as prolific as a Tillinghast or a Ross, I would doubt that many people, including Doak have the breadth of knowledge to come up with such a list.

I'd be interested in hearing Phil Young's thoughts on the Tillinghast list, or if anyone can even come up with a list for Ross.

I've never played San Francisco GC, but the 2nd hole at Valley CC in Hazleton, PA could be one of the best par 3s I've played and stands as one of the best Tillinghast holes I've played to date.

[JMorgan]

That list isn't just his best holes, but a list that tally a par 72.

Wouldn't mackenzie be hurt because so many of his best holes are at cypress, augusta, royal melbourne.
They just happen to be 3 of the best.

not to shoot holes in your interesting theorem.... 

There is no way I could analyze someones work - maybe Pete Dye.

Casa, Sawgrass, Kiawah, The Golf Club
I don't know how to rank his best holes that I've seen.
That would take me a while - frankly they all seem a little similar
Maybe I'll use my new book to help me refresh my memory....

Cheers

Mike, no theorems, just questions.  And without knowing it, I think you've started to answer a few of them.

[JMorgan]

Wouldn't this imply some sort of comprehensive knowledge of the architect's work?

With someone as prolific as a Tillinghast or a Ross, I would doubt that many people, including Doak have the breadth of knowledge to come up with such a list.

I'd be interested in hearing Phil Young's thoughts on the Tillinghast list, or if anyone can even come up with a list for Ross.

I've never played San Francisco GC, but the 2nd hole at Valley CC in Hazleton, PA could be one of the best par 3s I've played and stands as one of the best Tillinghast holes I've played to date.

Kyle,

The list is from Doak so he did come up with a list.  (He also came up with a list for Ross, Mackenzie, CBM, Dye).  Maybe Phil will chime in with his thoughts.

Do you think it is difficult or not possible because one would need to play or see all of the courses of a particular architect?  If so, what qualities of this knowledge would contribute to your choices?

[Phil_the_Author]

James,

I think you raise an interesting question here, but I see this as an example of what my favorite author once wrote, "Logistics are the assassins of ideas."

Consider your list above. The first problem is that it is subjective to an individual's preferences and, even more importantly, playing experiences. As an example, I'm certain if you ask him, and I could be wrong on this, that Tom will tell you that he has NEVER played Bethpage Blue.

Even though there are only 8 original Tilly holes left, one of them, the 2nd hole, is a true world-class par-4 and one of the finest in all of the Bethpage Courses, rivaling a number of the ones on the Black.

In order to compile an individual list of this nature one really has to have played, if not all, then most of a particular architect's courses in order to compile one that is reasonable.

By the way, even this list has a quirk to it that may render it useless as it appears to be a list of what he considers tilly's best hole based upon their location on the courses they occupy. For example, the first hole from WFW. It is the actual 1st hole from the course so is the list affected by this methodology?

Finally, I prefer to keep my private lists of what I consider his greatest individual holes and courses just that, private. This is for several reasons that I also believe be best kept private for the time being...

But I'll be quite interested in seeing the lists that others come up with.

[JMorgan]

James,

I think you raise an interesting question here, but I see this as an example of what my favorite author once wrote, "Logistics are the assassins of ideas."

Consider your list above. The first problem is that it is subjective to an individual's preferences and, even more importantly, playing experiences. As an example, I'm certain if you ask him, and I could be wrong on this, that Tom will tell you that he has NEVER played Bethpage Blue.

Even though there are only 8 original Tilly holes left, one of them, the 2nd hole, is a true world-class par-4 and one of the finest in all of the Bethpage Courses, rivaling a number of the ones on the Black.

In order to compile an individual list of this nature one really has to have played, if not all, then most of a particular architect's courses in order to compile one that is reasonable.

By the way, even this list has a quirk to it that may render it useless as it appears to be a list of what he considers tilly's best hole based upon their location on the courses they occupy. For example, the first hole from WFW. It is the actual 1st hole from the course so is the list affected by this methodology?

Finally, I prefer to keep my private lists of what I consider his greatest individual holes and courses just that, private. This is for several reasons that I also believe be best kept private for the time being...

But I'll be quite interested in seeing the lists that others come up with.

Phil, you make two interesting points:

*coming up with a best 18 is subjective and involves certain individual preferences

*one should have played most holes designed by an architect before creating a list

I don't know if I agree with you . . .  but I would like to know what preferences or criteria you and everyone else would use when coming up with a similar list.

[Phil_the_Author]

Since you ask, as far as Tilly is concerned, and I would hope that this principle would apply to all architects being discussed, in my mind the most important thing that is needed in order to compile a list of this type is a good understanding of the types of holes and features therein that the architect conisdered as most important.

For example. The most important feature of every hole that Tilly designed, and he this a number of times, is the green entrance. Once a tee and green location was chosen, Tilly considered and designed the entrance to the green before any other feature on that hole. In fact, he once wrote that while examining any course, even if simply there to watch a tournament, he would always stand behind the back of the green and examine how the entrance effected the play of the hole.

So I ask, how often do you study green entrances while playing a Tilly course. If you are to rank his work, this part of it must come first.

Another example, one can't simply choose "par-fives" as a set, and choose his 4 best. Why not? Because Tilly built different types of three-shotters and purposed the play on them quite differently from each other. Let's iullustrate this with the two par-fives on Bethpage Black's front nine, holes 4 & 7.

The 4th hole measured about 490 yards whereas the 7th hole measured 600 yards in 1936 when the course opened. Despite this more than 100 yard difference in length, Tilly considered the 4th to be a true three-shotter while the 7th was designed with the heroic play in mind to possibly reach it in two shots. In fact, the first time it was ever reached in two was in the fall of 1935 when Jimmy Hines was asked to play a round on it to see how it was growing in. He hit driver, three-iron and his second shot went OVER the green! Even with todays super equipment, the hole is still not reachable in two and won't be played that way by almost all at the coming 2009 Open because of the elevation difference between the landing area for the drive and the putting surface. In fact, the green itself, sloping away and downhill from the player convinces even the foolish not to attempt it.

So, for me, understanding of what the design intent for the hole was and seeing how successful it is to having play of that nature happen.

Beauty that inspires is important as well as the simple pleasure of its play that encourages ones desire to go right back to the tee box and play it once again...

These are a few of the qualities I look for when considering ranking holes against each other...

[JMorgan]

Another example, one can't simply choose "par-fives" as a set, and choose his 4 best. Why not? Because Tilly built different types of three-shotters and purposed the play on them quite differently from each other. Let's iullustrate this with the two par-fives on Bethpage Black's front nine, holes 4 & 7.

The 4th hole measured about 490 yards whereas the 7th hole measured 600 yards in 1936 when the course opened. Despite this more than 100 yard difference in length, Tilly considered the 4th to be a true three-shotter while the 7th was designed with the heroic play in mind to possibly reach it in two shots. In fact, the first time it was ever reached in two was in the fall of 1935 when Jimmy Hines was asked to play a round on it to see how it was growing in. He hit driver, three-iron and his second shot went OVER the green! Even with todays super equipment, the hole is still not reachable in two and won't be played that way by almost all at the coming 2009 Open because of the elevation difference between the landing area for the drive and the putting surface. In fact, the green itself, sloping away and downhill from the player convinces even the foolish not to attempt it.

So, for me, understanding of what the design intent for the hole was and seeing how successful it is to having play of that nature happen.

Beauty that inspires is important as well as the simple pleasure of its play that encourages ones desire to go right back to the tee box and play it once again...

These are a few of the qualities I look for when considering ranking holes against each other...

Nice example, Phil. 

Interestingly enough, your analysis would also serve as a good rebuttal to someone arguing against differences in Macdonald/Raynor template holes.   

That is, for example, one Short hole is as good as another, whether from NGLA, Shoreacres, etc. 

But I'll leave that one up to whomever composes a CBM/Raynor best 18.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Could you say that an architect is more meritorious to some degree by the quantity of best holes spread across more courses?
...

No, that is only an indication of how many courses he built.

Your proposed criteria might just make JN the greatest architect of all time! 

[JMorgan]

...
Could you say that an architect is more meritorious to some degree by the quantity of best holes spread across more courses?
...

No, that is only an indication of how many courses he built.

Your proposed criteria might just make JN the greatest architect of all time! 

Garland, many on this site might argue that Nicklaus' best holes could be found on three courses, Sebonack, Harbour Town, and Muirfield Village.   

I should probably add Cabo Ocean to that list as well.

[mark chalfant]

Just starting

Raynor/  Banks

10.  Fishers Island
11.  Yeamans Hall
12.  Camargo
13   Fairfield
14.  Yale  or Whippoorwill
15.  Shoreacres
16.  Westhampton
17.  Morris County
18.  Fox Chapel  or  Hackensack

[JMorgan]

Preliminary Colt?

  1 St George's Hill/RCD
  2 Wentworth East/PV
  3 St. Mellons/PV/RCD
  4 Stoke Poges/RPGC
  5 Eden
  6 Sandwell
  7 Stoke Poges
  8 Eden
  9 Radyr
10 Muirfield/Moor Park West/UGC De Pan/Zoute/PV/RPGC
11 Muirfield/Hoylake/Wentworth East
12 Hoylake/Moor Park High/Moor Park West/Radyr
14 Moor Park High/RPGC
15 UGC De Pan
16 Rye
17 Muirfield
18 Blackmoor/Wentworth West,East/RCD/RPGC

[Mike_Cirba]

I believe Tom came up with the Tillinghast list prior to playing Fenway (I'm not sure if he has since then).   

Personally, I'd stick at least two of those suckers in there, the 5th and 15th, and it's tough to see how none of the holes at Five Farms stuck, as there are a number of exemplary holes such as the 10th.

However, of all the archies, I think perhaps it's most difficult to come up with a decisive Tilly listing, and I do believe that says something profound about the variety of hole designs he was able to achieve.

[Tom_Doak]

Indeed, Phil, I have never played or walked the Blue course at Bethpage.  And, as Mike thought, I only have played Fenway once, a few years after The Confidential Guide was published.  So I would hate to think that any of those lists in the Gazetteer are considered "definitive" by anybody, it was just an attempt to say that each of the architects built a few great holes on their lesser-known courses.

As JMorgan postulates, having 12 or 14 courses represented on your "greatest 18" list would be a good sign ... but a lot of most people's choices tend to be sucked up by iconic courses ... for example everyone's MacKenzie list is going to have certain holes from Augusta National, no matter how good the 13th hole is at some of his other courses.

I haven't tried to do an "eclectic 18" from my own courses for several years now, but it must be getting pretty varied.

[Matt_Ward]

Just a question to the group -- when all-star postings of holes for a given architect are made -- are holes chosen when played from the tips or from the middle or from the front.

Some holes are quite extraordinary from all three or more tee placements but not necessarily so in my mind.

In regards to Tom D's comments -- there is often times the assumption that the top tier layouts must automatically have the majority of holes on such a list when it's quite possible that lesser known courses could have an even better choice for consideration.

I'm thinking about my own personal Tillie list -- sort of my gift to Phil Y to ponder about.

By the way Phil -- good call on the 2nd at Bethpage Blue. I also think the dog-leg left par-4 6th could also be a selection.

[JMorgan]

I haven't tried to do an "eclectic 18" from my own courses for several years now, but it must be getting pretty varied.

Anyone want to give it a go?  I don't know if I'd say a TD best 18 list is complete without playing Barnbougle, which would probably disqualify quite a few people.

[JMorgan]

Just a question to the group -- when all-star postings of holes for a given architect are made -- are holes chosen when played from the tips or from the middle or from the front.

Some holes are quite extraordinary from all three or more tee placements but not necessarily so in my mind.

Matt, good point.  To qualify, I think it is important for the hole to play equally from all tee placements -- in other words, it must meet Alison's "no cake and eat it too" rule.

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