Longing for F&F

[Sean_A]

Bradley

Living in Michigan I was always under the impression that the bent fairways (of the mid 70s to early 80s) would die if not heavily watered in the summer months.  In other words, Supers weren't willing to take the chance that rain will probably fall somewhat regularly and when it did over-watering was the result.  Is this not the case?  Could these fairways be less watered?  If not, what are some better grasses (for Michigan) so far as f&f is concerned?

Ciao

[John Moore II]

Sean--The bent may or may not have to be watered in the summer. It depends on what strand of grass it is. Some of the varieties even back then could tolerate low water. But it depends on the ventilation the grass can get and other things. It also depends on the temperatures in the area.

[Bradley Anderson]

Sean,

Where fairways are concerned, I would say that the environmental characteristics of the site, together with the technology and tools of the operation, generally have a greater effect on watering than the chosen cultivar of bentgrass. I seeded a section of my fairways to Seaside bent which is the oldest bent that we can buy today, and over the years it has required no more or less water in dry hot conditions than Penneagle. (I thought the Seaside might have a more venerable and grainy old look to it, but actually it just looks anemic next to the Penneagle.)

You wrote that in the 80's: "Supers weren't willing to take the chance that rain will probably fall somewhat regularly and when it did over-watering was the result."

Back in the 80's we got our weather forecast from the nightly news guy who covered 4 counties, and that was if you could stay awake until 10:30. Today I am able to go on a NOAA web site that gives me very specific weather information of my exact location and in real time. That makes a HUGE difference in how one goes about programing irrigation cycles to complement what mother nature does or does not provide.

Back in the 60's Bob Williams at Bob O Link actually devised an amazingly simple tool for monitoring how much water was lost to turf every day, and from that data he could dial in what to put back at night. It was a plastic shoe box with the lid taken off, and filled partially full with water. Inside of the box he placed several sponges half emerged in the water, and half exposed to the wind and air. On a humid, cloudy, cool day there might be only a half inch of water drawn from the box. On a hot, windy, dry day there might be 2 or 3 inches loss of water to correspond with what was lost to the turf after you transposed the data. The technical term for what this tool provided is EVAPOTRANSPIRATION, and today we can buy weather stations for telling us this information, that speak directly to the irrigation computer, and with much greater accurracy.

So technology is big piece of the puzzle.

[Jon Wiggett]

On the subject of watering the fairways or not and if they can survive I would point out that before irrigation either the fairways were dirt or they didn't need irrigation. If the grass won't survive without water then maybe it is the wrong sort of grass.

[John Moore II]

Jon-Many grasses today need the water because its what the members and customers insist on. It would be very hard convincing members to play off Common Bermuda fairways, thats what we would have in the south. The others don't hold up very well from what I have seen without a fair amount of water. Its not that the wrong grasses are down, its that memberships and players want the grass to be bright green all the time, and if it isn't, they complain.

[Jon Wiggett]

Johnny,

I can not comment about warm season grasses because I have no experience or real knowledge of them. Nor can I say if there is an alternative to them. With cold season grasses however I can say that in most situations that Fescue rubra. ssp. produce the best playing surfaces for F&F golf. They also have the advantage of being eco friendly which A & G & L are not as well as being more resistent to desease.

As to the customer. The god green is in my experience a product of the industrie and not a demand from the customer per se. It appears in the US that you experience only this type of presentation but I think you will find that many of the players playing F&F with a tint of brown also like (and some rave) about it. I am not saying that all courses should be so but a few should and could be. People like variety which is why they play different courses but not all people which is why some only play the same one all the time.

[TEPaul]

"Its not that the wrong grasses are down, its that memberships and players want the grass to be bright green all the time, and if it isn't, they complain."

I think that very expectation (bright or dark and lush green) is the real problem over here. In my experience that particular color on golf courses is almost never F&F. It may even be that it can't possibly be.

It seems to me the new color over here that's pretty much only the product of some of the big-budget clubs that have gotten into firm and fast playability is what I call the "light green sheen".

That look is actually not browned or even tinged with brown, it's pretty much that light green sheen throughout. Unfortunately that product probably costs a ton of money to produce and keep consistently as we're talking big-time man-hours and huge crews doing constant syringing to produce that particular look.

For those out there who don't know the difference, I was told some years ago by those who certainly would know that "syringing" is not irrigating, it's only light water applications to cool grass leaf and such.

Matter of fact the way it was explained to me is if the syringer drops the hose much below perpindicular to the ground he's beginning to get into irrigating but if he keeps the hose perpendicular to the ground he's "syringing" (cooling) and not irrigating.

 

[TEPaul]

I don't know enough about grass to talk about it intelligently but water output or lack of it is one thing and certainly important but another big factor in golf agronomy is soil temperature and perhaps even leaf temperature.

It seems like a rule of thumb in my area, at least, is if the heat AND humidity reading gets near and certainly above the 150 range you are getting into the danger zone.

A couple of years ago we were advised to buy a couple of really good digital soil temperature thermometers and I'm quite sure they've helped us.

[JohnH]

I don't know enough about grass to talk about it intelligently but water output or lack of it is one thing and certainly important but another big factor in golf agronomy is soil temperature and perhaps even leaf temperature.

It seems like a rule of thumb in my area, at least, is if the heat AND humidity reading gets near and certainly above the 150 range you are getting into the danger zone.

A couple of years ago we were advised to buy a couple of really good digital soil temperature thermometers and I'm quite sure they've helped us.

TEPaul,

When I tell my employees to syringe I want them to "make the grass sparkle" and don't see accumulation or runoff of water.  Almost like a fresh dew look in the AM.  

The heat and humidity reaching 150 is a fungal disease model that supers have been using forever.  Don't mistake high humidity as a detriment to the way turf keeps cool.  The higher the humidity, the longer the grass stays succulent and resists evaporation.  Thus the wet breeding ground for diseases.

In my situation, I'm at the mercy of my superiors.  They want a green golf course, but will accept a "sheen green" (I've heard you preach that here before) or even a brown tinge when they want faster playability for certain events.  The interesting thing I hear is from the older membership who don't hit it as far anymore.... "let the fairways die!"  The younger patrons want green and lush for the most part -- where distance is not an issue.

[TEPaul]

JohnH:

Informative post there. You have heard the "light green sheen" from me on here before. As I'm sure you know I'm into inventing all kinds of catchy phrases and "light green sheen" just sounds neat to me, plus I think it describes the look of that condition really well.

When I see a course with that look I don't even have to hit a shot on it, I know just by looking at it a golf ball will bounce high and take off like a red-ass rabbit!  

[TEPaul]

Actually maybe that's a good candidate for a new catch phrase for ultra-firm and fast playability:

"How's your course playing?"

"It's playing great, just like a red-ass rabbit!"

[Jon Wiggett]

"Its not that the wrong grasses are down, its that memberships and players want the grass to be bright green all the time, and if it isn't, they complain."

I think that very expectation (bright or dark and lush green) is the real problem over here. In my experience that particular color on golf courses is almost never F&F. It may even be that it can't possibly be.

It seems to me the new color over here that's pretty much only the product of some of the big-budget clubs that have gotten into firm and fast playability is what I call the "light green sheen".

That look is actually not browned or even tinged with brown, it's pretty much that light green sheen throughout. Unfortunately that product probably costs a ton of money to produce and keep consistently as we're talking big-time man-hours and huge crews doing constant syringing to produce that particular look.

For those out there who don't know the difference, I was told some years ago by those who certainly would know that "syringing" is not irrigating, it's only light water applications to cool grass leaf and such.

Matter of fact the way it was explained to me is if the syringer drops the hose much below perpindicular to the ground he's beginning to get into irrigating but if he keeps the hose perpendicular to the ground he's "syringing" (cooling) and not irrigating.

 

Tom,

IMHO the 'Great God Green' has been developed and pushed by the industry. It is in the interests of any company selling grass health care products to ensure that the client (golf course) will constantly need to use their products. The last thing a company will ever do is produce a grass that is really desease tolerant.

What would the ideal grass offer?

1. Good desease resistance.
2. Good heat and drought tolerence.
3. Great playing surface.
4. Slow growth reducing cutting requirements and so cost effective.
5. Longevity.
6. Slow spread speed so as to reduce the danger of it invading unwanted areas.
7. Usable on all areas of the course.

Why would the industry not produce such a product. Two reasons, 1. The massive turnover in grass care products would be greatly reduced. 2. It already exists and is called Fescue rubra. ssp.

So why don't courses use fescue more. Because the perception of what makes a golf course good for most people is colour which has nothing to do with how a course plays. Odd.

Would welcome views from the other side to help me find equalibrium

[Steven_Biehl]

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[Joe Hancock]

Jon and Steve,

Thanks for the differing perspectives on Fine Fescue. The thing everyone needs to remember is the geographic/ climate factor. The diseases Steve describes as a problem may not be at all where Jon is.

Polystands (multiple varieties of multiple species) work well because, eventually, through natural(and unnatural!) selection, dominant species and varieties will prevail. The key is to manage wisely, with an emphasis on the playability of the turf rather than putting the priority on aesthetics.

Good teaching and learning opportunities here, keep it up.

Joe

[TEPaul]

"Would welcome views from the other side to help me find equalibrium .  

Steve and Jon:

This is what I'd suggest, even if it's effect may be limited but nevertheless it should be tried.

Since I believe most golf grasses and such are developed by universities and since I was contacted a year or so ago by the Pennsylvania Turf Grass Council to talk about ways to raise funding, I'd suggest this----

That funding for these university golf grass development programs should dry up unless they dedicatedly develop grasses that produce the kind of characteristics you mentioned above and if the golf chemical and agronomy industry with all its support arms that just add to the cost of golf grass and reduce its endurance don't like it or go along with it then they should be simply told to F...OFF!

Some of you guys act like the billion dollar American agronomy industry has the power over all of us like some "Big Brother" government.

Well, I think that's a bunch of crap!

[Joe Hancock]

Some of you guys act like the billion dollar American agronomy industry has the power over all of us like some "Big Brother" government.

Well, I think that's a bunch of crap!

Tom,

I am inviting you to join me at the GIS Trade Show in Orlando on Jan. 31 or Feb. 1. Many of our GCA.com friends will be there, and you can see for yourself whether the golf agronomy industry is a billion dollar Big Brother. You can also witness the cold reception I receive as I stop and chat with fertilizer and pesticide booths.

 

Joe

[Nick Cauley]

Joe is right on the money, you have to remember the geographic climate factor.  I am in the south and bent can go dormant in March-May and still come back, but if it goes dormant in June,July, August or September it is DEAD, and you will have to try to grow the grass back in.  The Bent does not creep well in the fall, so it is harder to get the grass to cover over.  Then you end up sodding or plugging and everything is great until the next summer, and then first thing that dries out and dies are the plugs and sod.  Like Joe said you have to remember the location, how far you can push the grass, and when you can push the grass.

[TEPaul]

"You can also witness the cold reception I receive as I stop and chat with fertilizer and pesticide booths."

I suggest that this year and henceforth instead of stopping and trying to chat with them and therewith receive the cold shoulder that you approach those booths and when you are within at least six feet of them you turn around, bend over and fart in their faces! If I'm feeling a patch of flatulence coming on I will come to Florida and join you.

[Jon Wiggett]

If it was manufactures that developed the "Great Green God", it is the golfers that are keeping it going.  All superintendents would love to not have to worry about dry spots and disease.

And, I want everyone to read this:

FESCUE IS NOT THAT GOOD, SO QUIT SAYING IT IS!!!!

Fine fescue is not the grass sent from god for golf courses.  Just because Tom Doak, Crenshaw & Coore use it on their courses does not make it good.  I'll run down your seven points with it:

1. Good desease resistance:
Not really, very susceptible to pink patch, red thread, and snow molds.

2. Good heat and drought tolerence:
Not really. If it gets hot, fescue hates it.  And, it's not much more drought tolerant than bentgrass or bluegrass.  They all turn brown, then green up after rain.

3. Great playing surface:
This could be subjective, I have no argument for or against this one.

4. Slow growth reducing cutting requirements and so cost effective:
As long as you don't fertilize and water it, but that goes for any grass.

5. Longevity:
Shouldn't have any problem with longevity with any grass.

6. Slow spread speed so as to reduce the danger of it invading unwanted areas:
It does have a slow spread spead, but that's bad.  It cannot recover from divots, traffic, and wear.

7. Usable on all areas of the course:
No.

Bentgrass is still better for golf courses.  You can use it everywhere, except roughs.  Disease resistance is no better or worse than the lot of other grasses.  It spreads quickly.  Has very good heat, drought, and cold tolerance.  And you can manage it to play however you want.

Steven,

I agree, bent is a good grass and there are situations where it is the best choice but in a cool season climate, fescue is the better choice.if you read your own words.

‘Bentgrass is still better for golf courses.  You can use it everywhere, except roughs (BUT ROUGHS BELONG TO THE GOLF COURSE).  Disease resistance is no better or worse than the lot of other grasses(NOT THE BEST ARGUMENT FOR SAYING IT IS BETTER).  It spreads quickly (BAD IF YOU DONT WANT IT TO).  Has very good heat, drought, and cold tolerance (SO DOES FESCUE, JUST A BIT BETTER).  And you can manage it to play however you want (GOT ME THERE! FESCUE DOESN’T LIKE SOFT CONDITIONS).


Fine fescue is not the grass sent from god for golf courses.  Just because Tom Doak, Crenshaw & Coore use it on their courses does not make it good. (BUT IT DOESN’T MAKE IT BAD EITHER)

I'll answer your seven replies:


1. Fescue is the most resistant of the various cool season grasses as far as I am aware. Red thread does not kill it it is only a cosmetic problem, and snow molds don’t occour if you are running the right program. Dito pink patch. Fescue 1 up


2. But as you say it is more tolerant if only a little, and therefor better, if only a little. Fescue 2up

3. Atleast for F&F Fescue 3 up

4. Difference is fescue requires less than say bent or poa and due to its finer leaf also produces less litter. If you put A-4 on 5g/m2 on the greens and 0 g/m2 in the fairways I don’t think they will hold up to long. Fescue 4 up

5. Okay Fescue 4 up

6. In sensitive areas its good. Yes, it doesn’t recover so quickly through spread but you can divot fill, never had a traffic problem with compared to other grasses when compaction was prevented (the leaf does not wear out). Yes, bent germinates quicker but blue doesn’t. Fescue 4 up

7. Yes, or atleast everywhere that you can use bent + the rough aswell. Fescue 5

So I guess will have to agree to disagree on this one. FESCUE IS GOOD

[Bradley Anderson]

Steven,

My thoughts on fescue here were that it is not the best application in "unirrigated" fairways. But on sandy soils that are low in nurtients and water it is a great grass for golf. And it has many other great applications elsewhere: bunker edges, areas of rough that do not recieve much play, and shade.

[Jon Wiggett]

Bradley,

good point, fescue no good in the shade, have to cut down them trees I would however say it is exactly the right grass for 'unirrigated' fairways. The key is to keep water/air household in the right balance easier with sandy soils but possible with clay soils as well.

[JohnH]

Jon,

Probably a typo, but FF does very well in the shade..

In my experiences fine fescues grow well in soils with low fertility, low moisture, and unfavorable pH levels. They thrive in well drained areas and favor minimum management, and theoretically don't do well where excess fertilizer and irrigation are incorporated, or where poorly drained soils are the norm --

A definition of the perfect grass from a minimalist view....

[Steven_Biehl]

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