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Eric Smith

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The Greatest Collaboration
« on: December 31, 2007, 07:23:24 PM »
A subjective question I realize, but here it is:

What is considered the greatest collaboration in golf course architectural history?

I think I mean this question to be more about the people who collaborated, than the stature of the course in which they put in the ground.  (Can this be two separate instances?)

Pine Valley comes to mind, it is the #1 course in the world.  Is it the Greatest Collaboration?

I'd love to hear of other great examples and arguments for or against.  

Oh, and Happy New Year!

Eric

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 08:11:30 PM »
It has to be Pine Valley.

You have other courses that have had a number of architects work on it, like Pebble Beach or Augusta but nothing like Pine Valley.  

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2008, 05:58:33 AM »
What about Royal County Down or St Andrews?

wsmorrison

Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2008, 07:45:19 AM »
I fail to see any evidence (granted it is only photographic) of Old Elm being the greatest collaboration in any regard.  It looks to be a solid golf course with interesting bunkering.  What is the topography like, pretty flat?  It looks pretty crowded with a lot of parallel holes mostly running N-S or S-N.  Other than it being an early Colt routing and a Ross build, what makes it great let alone the asked for greatest collaboration?  How does it surpass Pine Valley, Merion East, or other outstanding courses with contemporary collaborations?  How does it surpass Merion West?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 08:29:45 AM by Wayne Morrison »

wsmorrison

Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2008, 09:24:19 AM »
There is a lot I find wrong with your reply.  It is the design cooperation that is the important factor in collaboration regardless of contractual details or position on a flow chart.

Somebody or some committee hired Colt at Old Elm and then hired Ross.  If hiring by an owner defeats the collaborative spirit, how is the Old Elm scenario any different than Wilson hiring Pickering and later Flynn?  How do you know that Colt did all the designing and Ross simply built the course to his plans.  Is that a collaboration?  If so, there is more of a collaboration between Raynor and Macdonald, Toomey and Flynn, Hatch/McGovern and Ross, Bell/Thomas, etc.

How is the Old Elm scenario different than Crump hiring Colt?  I'll tell you, it is because Crump was actively involved in the design, more so than anyone else as was Wilson at the early and mid-stages of Merion.  Colt wasn't the only contemporary collaborator at Pine Valley.  Tillinghast, Alan and Hugh Wilson collaborated without compensation. Alison, Flynn and others had a hand in the development.  Alison and Govan were likely paid, not sure about Flynn though he was made a member and Howard Toomey was on an executive committee.

When you make an outrageous statement such as Wilson hired a consultant (CBM) you lose all credibility.  Firstly, CBM was an amateur in the strictest sense.  I doubt you'll find any instance where he was a paid consultant.  Secondly, there is no evidence that CBM or Whigham for that matter had any design input at Merion.  Yes, they toured the property and declared the land acceptable for golf.  Curious that, if he thought hard about it, the Ardmore Avenue constraint didn't bother CBM.  

Wilson was the man most responsible for the early development of the East Course.  He worked with a committee to come up with the routing and initial design.  Sure, Wilson was the man most responsible for the initial effort but Fred Pickering (Flynn's brother-in-law) also had much to do with the initial product.  Wilson's long-time collaboration with Flynn and then later Flynn on his own had much to do with the golf course we now know.

 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 09:34:24 AM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2008, 10:09:40 AM »
Perhaps Merion East was the greatest collaboration as it was the only course I'm aware of that was designed by committee which was created for that specific purpose.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 10:54:32 AM »
Eric,

  If you are looking for greatest in terms of names, how about Crystal Downs- MacKenzie and Maxwell. Also, how about all the work Thomas and Bell did together, especially Bel Air, since Jack Neville also helped with the course. Really though, with all the names involved at Pine Valley it would be tough to find one with more.



 
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 11:12:37 AM »
How about Hollins and MacKenzie at Cypress Point?
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

wsmorrison

Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 02:24:09 PM »
You'll have to post the letter so that we can see the details you refer to.  In your initial post you mentioned Colt as the man who routed the course and Ross as the man that built it.  Now you describe the relationship as walking the land together for a week to  "share notes and collaborate" whatever that means.  Who had the final say on design?  You imply that the collaboration as per your definition is that they both did, calling them co-agents.  Is that correct?  In any case, you are not consistent in your representations.  

This co-agent versus principal/agent difference has nothing at all to do with concept collaboration.  In your limited definition, only equals in the process (co-agents) are truly collaborating.  That is nonsense.  Collaboration is the sharing of ideas.  It doesn't matter if one man has the final say or not.  In any project, even committee driven, there is usually one man, the chairman, with the final say.  I doubt the scenario you would have us believe at Old Elm was completely equivalent between Colt and Ross.  Why is there only one architect of record?  However, I concede that you may be able to prove otherwise.  A start would be to print the letter you use as the basis for your position.

In the case of Merion, I certainly think it was a collaboration from the beginning to Wilson's death.  You do know that a committee was in charge of the development of a new course.  There was a chairman of that committee (Wilson), but ideas came from the committee members and from Pickering.  While I don't agree that collaboration only exists between co-agents, surely the committee members didn't have a principal/agent relationship.  What do you say to that?  There is no evidence that Macdonald had any design input whatsoever at Merion.  So why do you state that Wilson hired (even if he didn't pay him--or paid him in booze and lodging) Macdonald as a consultant?  How can Macdonald waive a fee if he never took one?  What proof have you that there was anything more than a casual consultation of a general nature?

wsmorrison

Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2008, 02:47:28 PM »
If you have any photos of Old Elm, I'd be delighted to see them.  It sounds like an interesting project.  The bunkering (from a modern aerial) looks quite good.  I wonder if Dan has an old aerial of the course that he would post.

By the way, Howard Toomey did not do any design work at all.  He was the managing partner in Toomey and Flynn.  This contracting engineering firm constructed courses designed by Flynn.  It also constructed a course by Alison (Burning Tree).  Flynn oversaw the construction of Westchester for Travis.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Greatest Collaboration
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2008, 07:56:11 PM »
On a modern scale, Sebonack could be listed here, or perhaps Sand Hills with C&C and the owner.

Depending on what it becomes, Old Mac could be included here as well.

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