[Joe Hancock]

Chip,

Don't confuse maintenance practices like fairway corridor width with architecture. That's like calling a Frank Lloyd Wright building bad because the walls are painted a bad color.

Kyle,

I disagree. The walls in the house don't lose functionality by being a different color. They just look different.

Maintenance practices such as mowing patterns and pin placements and irrigation and mowing heights are all functional aspects of how a course plays, not just how it looks.

Joe

[Kyle Harris]

Chip,

Don't confuse maintenance practices like fairway corridor width with architecture. That's like calling a Frank Lloyd Wright building bad because the walls are painted a bad color.

Kyle,

I disagree. The walls in the house don't lose functionality by being a different color. They just look different.

Maintenance practices such as mowing patterns and pin placements and irrigation and mowing heights are all functional aspects of how a course plays, not just how it looks.

Joe

Joe,

I'm more getting at a discord between the intent of the designer and the current maintenance meld. Chip's critique of the 4th at Merion seems to criticize the present width of the fairway and the length of the rough. Maybe my analogy was misunderstood.  

[Mike Sweeney]

i personally (in my opinion) think #6, #10, #14, #15, and #18 are world class holes.  #10 gives you so many ways to play it with risk and reward.  

Chip,

Just to challenge you the other way, how many ways can you play #10? If you are very very long, there are 2, otherwise it is a hybrid to 3 wood to the right side about 80 yards out.

6 is certainly a very good hole, but world class?

[wsmorrison]

1,3,5,and 17 are certainly on my list of world-class holes along with the aforementioned 6,10,14,15 and 18.  The 1st hole is better today than its ever been, due to technology.  The 3rd green is simply astounding, even if it is not now nor ever was a Redan green.  The misdirection off the tee and the shot demand, especially from the new back tee is thrilling equivalent to that of the 5th at Pine Valley though the Merion green is more interesting.  Holes 8,9,11,12 and 16 are all outstanding holes.  The 16th hole is the one hole on the course that is most negatively impacted due to advances in technology.

For transparency's sake, I can be accused of bias.  It isn't true, but I can be accused  

[Mike_Cirba]

Wait...why isn't 17 being named here as a world class hole?  

[Mark_F]

If you were to do one of those eclectic 18s, how many holes from Merion would be in a best 18 from Philadelphia?

Half?

If you were then to do a eclectic 18 from NE USA, how many holes at Merion would forgo a position?

[Jim Nugent]

Mark, according to George Pepper & the editors of Golf Magazine, #16 is in the world eclectic 18.  In their book, "500 World's Greatest Golf Holes," they rate it one of the 18 best holes in the world.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Wayne and Mike beat me to it - #1 is a world-class opener - great tee location, great flow to the fairway, great bunker placement, and a green that'll make your knees shake if your ball is in the wrong spot.

#17 - wow.  The first time I saw #17 was unforgettable.  It was during the US Amateur and I'd just walked away from the famous 16th with the match.  I got to 17 tee and thought, "this is a crescendo".  Playing back over the quarry to a great green complex, it plays with your nerves and your soul.  

The whole darn place is so special.  Don't tell anybody, but I've actually driven up to Ardmore just to drive around the place.  

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne and Mike beat me to it - #1 is a world-class opener - great tee location, great flow to the fairway, great bunker placement, and a green that'll make your knees shake if your ball is in the wrong spot.

#17 - wow.  The first time I saw #17 was unforgettable.  It was during the US Amateur and I'd just walked away from the famous 16th with the match.  I got to 17 tee and thought, "this is a crescendo".  Playing back over the quarry to a great green complex, it plays with your nerves and your soul.  

The whole darn place is so special.  Don't tell anybody, but I've actually driven up to Ardmore just to drive around the place.  

Dan, were you that guy coming in the opposite direction at 5 mph down Golf House Road?

[George Pazin]

Seems kinda like someone ought to do a series about the holes at Merion....

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

The reason Merion is so good is that pretty much every hole is going to be picked as great by some level of golfer.  You take 6 and 10; I prefer 5 and 7.

Certainly, it's all a matter of opinion -- and if you set your threshold high enough for "great", then NO course has 18 great holes.

[Jonathan Cummings]

The "Raising the bar test" is an interesting metric when judging a golf course.  There is a heighth you can raise the bar (when talking about Pine Valley) where no holes are considered great.  Reduce the bar slightly from that point and they are ALL great.  Says something about the relative quality of PVGC's eighteen.  JC

[Dan Herrmann]

Jonathan - you really think Pine Valley is devoid of great golf holes?   Methinks not.   A tour of Pine Valley will bring a wicked smile to any golf course architecture fan.

Back to Merion - Do you think there are any great golf holes at Merion West?  
-----------------
Interesting article from the New York Times, 1916 on the Merion courses:  http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9E03E7D7153BE233A25754C2A96E9C946796D6CF&oref=slogin

(you may need to register at NY Times' website to see the article)

[JESII]

Dan,

I think JC is saying that "great" is subjective...that someone could argue that none of the 18 at PV are great just as easily as all 18 are great...and there is very little difference between the two standards when discussing Pine Valley...and that in itself is a testament to PV.

[Dan Boerger]

Dan - I think #5 at the West Course is a great hole by any standards. #7 at the West is also a terrific hole. I could go on. In fact, this course is in my top 10 of all Philly area courses. And the West Course bar is in my top 5!

[Dan Herrmann]

Jim - you're right - thanks!

Dan - amen to that.  I'd love to see Merion have more GAP teams and play the lower divisions at Merion West - it's a helluva course.

[JSlonis]

Dan,

That was JESII you were responding to, not me.  Although I'll gladly take credit for any of his brilliant commentary.

As for Merion, I can find something great about every single hole on the golf course.  It is truly a special place.

[JESII]

You can have it...all of it...my brain hurts from all the brilliance stuffed inside...or is that wine?

[TEPaul]

"Jonathan - you really think Pine Valley is devoid of great golf holes?"

Dan:

I could be wrong but it looks to me like he might be saying the opposite.

But if, by chance, he is saying what you first thought he better not come around this area because his habeas Corpus will've been suspended permanently!  

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom, it was my misunderstanding on a late Christmas night.  

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