[Jonathan Cummings]

I was at a women's golf meeting yesterday at the DC Ritz and learned a few facts that I found astounding.  There are currently 7 golf courses opened or near open in Viet Nam (I was born in 1952 - Viet Nam has a special and not altogther good meaning for my generation).  I was surprised to find myself incredibly curious in visiting Viet Nam to see these courses (I predict I'll do so in the near future).

I also learned that the Chinese are predicted to have 500-1000 golf courses in 10 years.  They expect 400,000 golfers by then.  With the poor leadership and cultural fracturing of US women's golf along with (unlike Koreans) the Chinese adversion to integrating with other cultures, there is a strong chance that the premier ladies tour by 2020 will be headquartered in China and run by the Chinese.

JC

[John Kirk]

I don't think I'm at liberty to say who, but one architect I know was in discussions to build a course in Vietnam.  My memory is fuzzy, since the conversation took place a few months ago, but I recall he said they have some really good dunesland to work with.

[Adam Clayman]

I'm not too sure theChineese and golf are a perfect fit.

Watching the last two weeks on TV, I have never seen play interupted so many times due to discourteous patrons.

Another factor in my thinking was something my Dad had relayed about his trip there. Suffice to say, following the rules will be problematic.

[Joel_Stewart]

What type of golf courses?

I started a thread several years ago regarding would a C&C or Tom Doak course do well in Asia?  I believe Tom thought it could do well but the overall feeling was Fazio & Nicklaus are the most preffered.  It appears that the Asians want pretty, well manicured golf courses with waterfalls and white sand.

In the end I'm not expecting anything interesting in architecture coming out of Asia.

[Micah Woods]

Vietnam has about 15 operating courses right now. Cambodia is closer to 7 courses opened or near opening.

[Bill Shamleffer]

I'm not too sure theChineese and golf are a perfect fit.

Watching the last two weeks on TV, I have never seen play interupted so many times due to discourteous patrons.

Another factor in my thinking was something my Dad had relayed about his trip there. Suffice to say, following the rules will be problematic.

Adam,

I wonder if the Scots view of golf in America in 1907 is similar to the current American view of golf in China.

I would be curious to know if in 1900 Vardon thought golf in America was very primitive, or if in 1913 Vardon may have thought that golf in America had come a long way in 13 years.

I do not have answers to these musings.  I think I may have to read-up on Vardon over the holidays and see if I can find his impressions of golf in America at different points in time.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Micah - what is your source for the reported 15 VN courses?  I had pretty credible discussions with IMG yesterday on the subject.  The briefer lives in VN and is currently building two of the seven reported courses.  Two are near Hanoi, 2 are in central VN and three are to the east of Saigon.  Was this guy all wrong?  JC

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Let's take a trip:

www.hochiminhgolftrail.com

[Micah Woods]

There must be some miscommunication. Not sure how he could live in Vietnam and be aware of only 7 courses. There may be 7 courses under construction, but in the country there are already at least 11 courses open and operating. IMG are building the Montgomerie Links project and are likely involved with others so they should be a good source of information.

I am based in Thailand and have done some work for golf course clients in Vietnam. Vietnam would be a great place to visit in a few years for golf. Both GolfPlan (Fream) and IMG are building what they say will be links courses in dunes near the sea.

[David_Elvins]

I'm not too sure theChineese and golf are a perfect fit.

Watching the last two weeks on TV, I have never seen play interupted so many times due to discourteous patrons.

I would be willing to bet this has more to do with a lack of understanding of a new game than any personal quality based on race or culture.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Micah - thanks.  The IMG guy briefing us yesterday may have been only talking about 'his' courses, thus my mis-interpretation.  It seems, based on the Ho Chi Ming Golf Links link, that there are upwards to 25-30 courses in Viet Nam either built, being built or under design/consideration.  Thanks for the clarification.  I want to go now even moreso!  JC

[Mike_Young]

I think any boom in Asia would be different than what the Scots saw in The States....The topic says they expect 400,000 golfers in 10 years and 1000 courses.....The market there is tourism and golf will most likely be a secondary amenity at the hotels etc.....as this boom continues around the world there will be many courses where less than 5000 rounds per year are played......that requires subsidy by someone.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'd only go for the Pho.  

[Ally Mcintosh]

remind me again... you guys have the american continent in the centre of your world maps, don't you?  

[harley_kruse]

There are a few comments re China

the market is not just tourism.............plenty of locals buying memberships.a booming economy allows the means for buying membership

Chinese people are very althletic as we will see in 2008, and when they put their mind to golf I'm sure we will see men and women rise up on the world golfing scene in the next 10 or so years

Micah is right on with Vietnam. There are about 10 -15 courses open and another 15 in the pipeline for which our office has 3 to design. 1 next door to IMG's Monty course

[Mark Smolens]

Nice to see that the noted player/architect Colin Montgomerie's got the press agents working. . . http://www.asiangolfmonthly.com/news2.php?reg_id=684

[Jason McNamara]

remind me again... you guys have the american continent in the centre of your world maps, don't you?  

Well yeah Ally, but on the other hand we agreed to let you have the Prime Meridian.  

[JMorgan]

With over 7100+ islands to choose from, and with a significant golf population, the Philippines would be a prime locale for more golf course development -- if the country wasn't continually plagued with gov't corruption, economic instability, and pockets of extremism and terrorism.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think Jonathon is on the mark and has good insight into this subject. Adam you are also correct and make a valid point on doing business aka following rules in China. I am told Jack N and Jones Jr are the two main players with Norman knocking on the door for jobs currently.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Good article by Bill Huffman featuring Brian Curley and doing golf business in China:


www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/102518

[Micah Woods]

Nelson & Haworth also do many projects in China.

JMorgan is right about the Philippines. Many great sites for golf. But the inter-island transportation makes it difficult to get around. There is a bit of new development now, including one course at Elefante Island near Marinduque, and talk of a Korean development at Carabao Island near Boracay. Korean investment in golf projects in Vietnam and the Philippines may account for half of the new projects in those countries.

Thailand remains the best market for golf in Southeast Asia, with about 5 courses under construction at any one time, strong demand from domestic golfers, and millions of rounds from tourist golfers.

[B. Mogg]

I would guess (repeat guess since I dont think anyone knows the true story) that there are about 400-500 completed golf courses in China. There are probably around another 200+ or so either under construction right now or in advanced stages of design/planning. No one really knows because the developers don't want the govt to know whats going on until they have the courses complete (i.e. its better to ask for forgiveness than permission). I believe the official word is that course construction is banned in China although the attitude on the street is that they (the developers and their projects) are all a long way from the emporer's palace!

In terms of the break up of who is designing what I would again "guess" that around half the courses are low budget jobs being designed by local chinese designers. Of the remainder I would think the majority are being designed by overseas designers who are NOT signature names. A small although possibly significant number of courses are being designed by "signature" names like Nicklaus, Norman, RTJ2 etc.

I could be wrong of course, so if someone from Nicklaus or Norman gets back to me and says they are designing 10-20 courses in China I would have to adjust all my numbers upwards!

Also, I think the numbers for Vietnam given are probably on the low side although may be right when the final wash up is completed. There is a hell of a lot of jobs in planning in Vietnam right now (guessing 50 or so) but how many make it through to construction is anyones guess. Talk is cheap and all that.

Willing to be corrected on all of the above!

[Kerry Gray]

I was at a women's golf meeting yesterday at the DC Ritz and learned a few facts that I found astounding.  There are currently 7 golf courses opened or near open in Viet Nam (I was born in 1952 - Viet Nam has a special and not altogther good meaning for my generation).  I was surprised to find myself incredibly curious in visiting Viet Nam to see these courses (I predict I'll do so in the near future).

I also learned that the Chinese are predicted to have 500-1000 golf courses in 10 years.  They expect 400,000 golfers by then.  With the poor leadership and cultural fracturing of US women's golf along with (unlike Koreans) the Chinese adversion to integrating with other cultures, there is a strong chance that the premier ladies tour by 2020 will be headquartered in China and run by the Chinese.

JC

The Chinese adversion to integrating?
I live in Toronto with a Chinese community of roughly 500K. I would say that most Chinese have little problem adjusting to the Western world. Hong Kong is a shining example of how the west and east and can coincide easily. I am relocating to China in December and have spent the better part of a year in Asia.
The question for the Americo-centric crowd is what will the LPGA do when clearly the majority of great players in the world are no longer Americans. Perhaps they should consider re-centralizing their Tour to more appopriately represent their potential audience and stars. The money and sponsors will follow.

As for the gentleman's comment about anything interesting out of Asia in terms of architecture. Hmmm thought alot of Allison's great work was in Japan? Hirono? Kawana? Japan is in Asia.
China's ventures are new and they certianly have the style over substance problems. Misssion Hills is a prime example.
But the money for development will be extraordinary. Along the way some foreign companies will invest and bring in some better influences. It may take a while but I suspect many courses that do not find a audience will be redone. Golf development in the US was not disimilar. Consider the influence Macdonald's NGLA had after it was built. China has not had it's NGLA built yet but be patient. That said the diversity in topography and natural sites in China are endless, which favours minimalism if anything.  
We shall see.

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