The Redan: Boost vs. Brake

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

We go into great detail in our Flynn book regarding the architectural evolution of Shinnecock Hills.  The elevator speech is that Macdonald built a Redan hole (his 14th) on the same spot that Flynn's 7th hole sits on.   Flynn built up the green well above grade so that the green sits above the Macdonald tee.  Macdonald's green was below the level of his tee and sat on naturally sloping ground right to left.  Flynn completely redesigned the bunkering.  Interestingly, the Macdonald bunkering was very different than his customary Redan bunkering.  A MacRayBankser would compartmentalize the description as a Redan green with Biarritz bunkering.  Flynn extended Macdonald's tee towards the green and added two new tees including the Flynn tee on the left that fits the green best and a forward tee that was positioned between the two tees.

Bahto mistakenly attributes seven holes to Macdonald.  I don't know his methods since he doesn't share his "Bahto Collection" with anyone.  I have drawings, topographic maps and letters that support our conclusions.  I've shown them to many people and shared them with the club.  Except for the Macdonald tee on the 7th (which Flynn lengthened) there is nothing left of Macdonald's pre-existing design.  Everything is Flynn and it is all covered in our Flynn book, which couldn't come out soon enough for both Tom and me.

[Bill Brightly]

OK, I dont doubt you. But, if Flynn built the green higher, it would seem that the Redan bunker short and left of the green would be even further below the green. And it does not appear to be very deep by Macdonald standards, anyway, unless Flynn also raised the bunker.

It does makes sense that Macdonald would add a Redan hole when he was asked to work on SH, right?  

[wsmorrison]

The 14th in Macdonald's routing was a Redan with the green following the right to left slope of the natural grade of some 4-5 feet.  As I said, the bunkering for this hole was very different from other Macdonald Redan holes.  I cannot say what the depth of the original bunkers was, but this green is significantly higher than the Macdonald green (I believe the Macdonald tee was 3 feet higher than Macdonald's green).  Flynn told the club he was going to redesign the green, he billed the club for doing just that and the club paid him.  We know the green is higher than the original Macdonald green and it functions like no other Macdonald green.  I don't know if any additional proof is needed.

[Bill Brightly]

Wayne,

Could it be that Flynn took out the Redan's kick mound and made that part of green, and perhaps eliminated the back left portion on Macdonald's green?

If not, wouldn't you agree that this would be a rather bland version of a Redan for Macdonald? Certainly nothing like what he built at Piping Rock.

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

I think raising the green several feet would have eliminated any traces of Macdonald's green, back left, front right and everything in between.  Please consider the drawing I sent you.  The Flynn green was about 30% bigger than the offset rectangular Macdonald green.  Flynn's green did not extend as far back left as the lobe of Macdonald's green.  This area was built as a falloff.

Do you dismiss the notion that this is a Flynn green?

[Bill Brightly]

No, I dont doubt it is a Flynn green.

I think it was a strange Macdonald Redan if he built it without a kick mound, and such a shallow front bunker. I mean, the "wall" at North Berwick would still be fresh in his mind, so why would he be timid at Shinnecock?  

Honestly, my questions have little to do with Flynn. Rather, I am trying to "see" the old hole built by Macdonald.

I am home now, you probably sent the drawings to my office email, thanks!