[Adam Clayman]

AHuges- Perhaps I'm mis-reading you, but, the great place I witnessed this appreciation has only the GCA to blame for it.

Whether it was the 82 yr. Old retired Jewler, who winters in PHX, and felt 10 years younger afterwards, or, the 37 yr/ old City employee who can hit the ball 400 yards, to the 10 handicap 54 yr. old USDA predator control agent. They all were able to appreciate how much fun the golf course was. It is a non-dictational, strategic medium and has no cart girls or fancy accoutrement, save for the Lodge, which isn't germaine since these were day trips.

[Peter Pallotta]

Andy,

George's post said it more clearly than I did - that's what I was trying to say.  

I do believe that there are 'principles' of great architecture that are of such long-standing as to be like objective facts/truths. I know others might disagree with that.

But if that's true, I also believe that more golfers than we think can appreciate them, even if they can't articulate why.    

I'm not disagreeing with you that other factors go into the possible appreciation of a golf course than the great architecture alone; but I'm guessing that if you strung together 18 excellent, varied, lovely, option-filled, playable, strategic and fun golf holes in a row, a LOT of golfers would notice.

I think Adam's experience (at Ballyneal I'd imagine) might be the common one...that's why I jumped into his camp so quickly

Peter

[Kalen Braley]

The very success of Sand Hills, Ballyneal, the Bandon courses, etc., would seem to imply that it isn't necessary to have history to be appreciated.

I don't know about you guys, but the average golfer I meet on the public links has never ever heard of Sand Hills or Ballyneal.  I've met maybe one or two who have heard of the Bandon Resort, but couldn't name all the courses there.

I think what seems basic and common sense on this thread isn't neccessarily a given or anywhere close to common knowledge with the average majority golfer.

[Mike Hendren]

Utilizing Dismal River solely as a straw-man, and assuming that it is not "great" based solely upon what I read here (admittedly tenuous), would the majority of golfers favor Sand Hills by a significant margin?

Or, closer to home, would the majority favor Ross' Holston Hills in Knoxville over  Art Hills' Olde Stone in Bowling Green, KY?

Mike

[Andy Hughes]

Adam, if I could hit the ball 400 yards I would have fun playing in the Piggly Wiggly parking lot, much less Ballyneal.

I do not doubt that many people would have fun at your course. But I do wonder if the majority of golfers wouldn't also have fun at a course that perhaps did not quite have its gca greatness.  I also supect (though you obviously would actually know) that those playing a course like yours or Sand Hills are playing a bit of a novelty, something foreign to their normal course.

You mentioned your friends, so I shall mention mine!  We were in Myrtle Beach last Spring.  As a whole, my merry gang of 14 loved Heritage, more than other courses we played that others here would consider 'better.'  And the tee sheet was chock full. And really? It ain't all that--some beautiful views, an big clubhouse, but some over-rated gca (one man's opinion, obviously)

[John Kavanaugh]

Utilizing Dismal River solely as a straw-man, and assuming that it is not "great" based solely upon what I read here (admittedly tenuous), would the majority of golfers favor Sand Hills by a significant margin?

Or, closer to home, would the majority favor Ross' Holston Hills in Knoxville over  Art Hills' Olde Stone in Bowling Green, KY?

Mike

I am sure a majority of my friends would prefer The Bridge to Yale.  I would say that because so The Bridge is a greater course.  It is the dictators of taste that get it wrong sometimes.

[George Pazin]

I do not doubt that many people would have fun at your course. But I do wonder if the majority of golfers wouldn't also have fun at a course that perhaps did not quite have its gca greatness.  I also supect (though you obviously would actually know) that those playing a course like yours or Sand Hills are playing a bit of a novelty, something foreign to their normal course.

You mentioned your friends, so I shall mention mine!  We were in Myrtle Beach last Spring.  As a whole, my merry gang of 14 loved Heritage, more than other courses we played that others here would consider 'better.'  And the tee sheet was chock full. And really? It ain't all that--some beautiful views, an big clubhouse, but some over-rated gca (one man's opinion, obviously)

Sure they would have fun elsewhere - GOLF IS FUN!

But I think they would definitely appreciate the difference between a great course, and having fun with the guys at Myrtle.

[Tom Huckaby]

Not to be a smartass again, but isn't a course great if those who play it enjoy it?

So any course can have it's "greatness", be it a place in Myrtle Beach that the cognoscenti here poo-pooh, or a place in Holyoke, CO that the cognoscenti here drool over.

Once again, it comes down to definitions.  And Kalen, you warmed my heart with the distinction made early in this thread.

 

[Powell Arms]

Not to be a smartass again, but isn't a course great if those who play it enjoy it?

So any course can have it's "greatness", be it a place in Myrtle Beach that the cognoscenti here poo-pooh, or a place in Holyoke, CO that the cognoscenti here drool over.

Once again, it comes down to definitions.  And Kalen, you warmed my heart with the distinction made early in this thread.

 

you're not being a smartass, and neither am I when I point out that you didnt address the questions in the intial post

[Tom Huckaby]

Powell:

Sure I addressed the question; you just have to read through my cryptic smartassedness.

The answer is an obvious yes, because if they like it, it's great, no matter what anyone else says.

TH

[Powell Arms]

Powell:

Sure I addressed the question; you just have to read through my cryptic smartassedness.

The answer is an obvious yes, because if they like it, it's great, no matter what anyone else says.

TH

no disagreement there, anythign can be great depending on how the individual defines great

just a few questions from post #1 to ponder

Do the majority of golfers appreciate what makes a great architecture timeless?  In the hopes that we don’t devolve into a definition of greatness, lets be specific – If we took this “standard golfer” to Oakmont, The Old Course, Augusta, Pine Valley and Sand Hills, would they come away with an appreciation of architecture that they did not have before playing?


...

does great architecture have a timeless quality to it that allows it, over time, to have staying power over lesser rivals, and is this true even if the conscious mind of the majority of golfers does not understand the reason for the attraction?

[Tom Huckaby]

Powell:

Kalen can tell you if you wish, but I define "architecture" in a simple, logical manner which precludes answers to these questions.  There was a lengthy thread about this recently and I'd point you to it, but I don't want to freak you out.

 

To save you the trouble though, if you'd omit the word "architecture" from those questions, and ask me if they appreciate those courses themselves more than others that are their more standard fare... and ask if those courses have timeless qualities... then I'd give you an answer.

But of course my answer wouldn't change - and that is, if they do like those, they're great.  If they don't, they're not, to them.  And the same goes for their local muni.

I can be a real pain in the ass when I try to be.

 

[SL_Solow]

Tom;  You really don't have to try that hard.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom;  You really don't have to try that hard.

LOL!!!
Shel, did my wife put you up to that?

 

OK, just for that, I am gonna attempt to cease my smartassedness and try to answer the question the way Powell wants.

And I'd say there definitely is a class of golfers who would be impressed by these wonderful courses because they know they are supposed to be... but if you pressed them and got a real honest answer, they wouldn't like them all that much because they couldn't take a cart, there wasn't an ocean view, they rough was too high, any number of things that would just seem weird to be important, to us in here anyway.

I'm not sure they are the MAJORITY, but I am sure they exist.

However, I am swayed by Adam and others who want to look on the brighter side of life... and feel that these golfers would somehow "get it" or in the case of Adam, HAVE somehow GOTTEN it... that is cheery.

I just see so much of the other side in my friends outside of this forum, it does make me wonder.

TH

[Powell Arms]

Tom;  You really don't have to try that hard.

LOL!!!
Shel, did my wife put you up to that?

 

OK, just for that, I am gonna attempt to cease my smartassedness and try to answer the question the way Powell wants.

And I'd say there definitely is a class of golfers who would be impressed by these wonderful courses because they know they are supposed to be... but if you pressed them and got a real honest answer, they wouldn't like them all that much because they couldn't take a cart, there wasn't an ocean view, they rough was too high, any number of things that would just seem weird to be important, to us in here anyway.

I'm not sure they are the MAJORITY, but I am sure they exist.

However, I am swayed by Adam and others who want to look on the brighter side of life... and feel that these golfers would somehow "get it" or in the case of Adam, HAVE somehow GOTTEN it... that is cheery.

I just see so much of the other side in my friends outside of this forum, it does make me wonder.

TH

I appreciate the answer, and your ability to see past the word "architecture".  I also appreciate you not pointing me to that thread.  I would have been forced to retaliate with the cheater line thread.

[Tom Huckaby]

Powell:  now that was nasty... and GREAT!

 

It is a very interesting question, no matter my deceptions.

TH

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