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JC Jones

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UofM Mackenzie
« on: October 16, 2007, 04:56:13 PM »
The Ohio State thread got me thinking...

What work has been done to the UofM Mackenzie course?  I'm thinking about heading down there on Sunday and I'd like to know if there are still enough original features to make it worthwhile, and if so, what those features are.  

So, any of you Mackenzie-ophiles out there with knowledge, please indulge.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2007, 07:35:31 PM »
JC,

I don't know all the details, but some changes have been made to the original design of the UM course. Still, it's an excellent place for golf; in my opinion, easily one of the top-5 golfing experiences in and around Detroit.

Re features. You'll be amazed by the boomerang-esque green at the short par-4 sixth hole. It's a definite original. I've seen quite a few golf courses thoughout the world, yet nothing like UM's sixth green.
jeffmingay.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 08:07:10 PM »
JC

I don't think the routing has changed at all.  Its mostly a Maxwell routing with a few changes made by Mac before opening.  Mac routed the the 3rd hole (maybe the best on the course) using what would have been Maxwell's 2nd green.  Mac also did the 4th using what I think is his siting for the green - this is another one of the very good holes on the course.  Mac also changed 5 from a sharp dogleg par 4 into a par 3 using Maxwell' green site.  There must be the odd few other things Mac did to gain the extra 350 yards the final rendition had compared to Maxwell's design.  Also, I think Mac is responsible for the 6th green.  

So far as I know the major difference in the last 75 or so years is the drastic change in the bunkering scheme.  I am not sure if UofM ever had an flair to their bunkering scheme, but they are now dull as dishwater.  

Its a terrific course and one of my favourites in Michigan, but it could be better.  At the very least it is a Maxwell/Mac design and I think Mac's routing map gives Maxwell equal billing.  

An interesting tidbit - for many years cars were parked on the course for UofM football games.  The first hole was used as a lot because there was easy access to State St.  In Doak's book on Mac he shows a pic of the course next door, Ann Arbor G&OC, jammed with cars, not the U of M course.  This prompted our Chris Clouser (perhaps with other info as well) to write in his book on Maxwell that cars weren't parked on the UofM course.  I am not sure if Chris was given this info by a UofM official, but I saw parking on the course many a time.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 08:08:42 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2007, 01:07:20 AM »
JC,
Definitely go.  U of M is an excellent routing  over  rolling terrain.   the greens are brilliant. the bunkers are not worhty  of the Louvre,  but they have  strategic merit.  Many  Great holes including  2,3,6, 10, 13, 14. U of M is worthy of  study, dont miss it

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2007, 01:45:07 AM »
One of the apocryphal stories in golf architecture is the one about Michigan being such a football-mad school that they use their Alister MacKenzie golf course for game-day parking.  It is largely untrue.  Cars are indeed allowed inside the boundary fences of the golf course.  Cars cross, at one point, the first (formerly the 10th; the nines have been flipped, and then flipped back again) fairway.  Cars are also parked in some far corners of the course, virtually all out of bounds or out of play.  On rainy Saturdays where the course is soggy and damage might occur, all golf gourse parking is closed.

As for the bunkers, I actually like them, I think Arthur Hills did a very fine job with them; they now have what I think of as a MacKenzie look to them.  I know they have been critcized; I simply disagree with those criticisms.

The big problem and the truly great offense to the playability of the Michigan Golf Course was the thoughtless tree-planting for two or three decades.  The recent renovation, besides reworking all the bunkers, involved cutting down a bunch of trees.  They cut down a lot, and even that was only about 1/3 of what they should have done.

I hate to say it, but the Michigan Course has not gotten first-class attention to its turfgrasses over the years.  My thinking in this regard is by comparison (probably unfair) to the architecturally inferior (but better-maintined) Forest Akers courses at Michigan State in E. Lansing.  Michigan needs about a dozen of MSU's top-flite turfgrass mgmt. grad students.

Anyway, I think Michigan's golf course is a terrific layout, a must-see for any devotee of Maxwell and of MacKenzie, and a fun course to play.  (With regard to comparisons with Ohio State's Scarlet Course; to me, the Scarlet Course is a great one and one of the best collegiate golf courses anywhere.  But I honestly think that after the Hills renovation of Michigan and the Nicklaus renovation of the Scarlet, it is the Michigan course that retains more of the look of MacKenzie's authorship.

 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 01:52:05 AM by Chuck Brown »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 05:34:26 AM »
Chuck,
   Youre crazy thinking that UM would put one of us MSU turfgrass guys on their payroll! :) Thugh its my understanding that the turf has taken a back seat to golf, cross country and of course, football.
  Id love to see Doak and Co. have free reign with UM. Doak, being so passionate about Crystal Downs and being a Michigan native, that course could be Top 5 in the state. I wonder if the powers that be know what they coud/should have...???

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 08:24:58 AM »
Tony:

I've got a feeling Mike Devries wouldn't mind a crack at it, either!!! I think he's been to a football game or two there  ;D

Sobe

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 08:27:48 AM »

Doug,

         That goes back to the whole hiring a Michigan State guy again, as Mike is a Spartan.  I think he would do a great job also.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2007, 09:10:52 AM »
Doug,  
  You are absoluty correct. Mike slipped my mind. He too, has strong ties with Crsytal Downs, a Michigan native and a 'student of Mackenzie.' I have no doubt that he would cherish the opportunity to spearhad that project. Either way, UM could be one of Michigan's and even one of Mackenzie's better courses if restored by someone pasionate enough about it's architecture.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2007, 09:51:14 AM »
I think U of M was the first course back when I was in high school where I truly appreciated the architecture. I looked forward to playing there more than any course. Back then, #1 was the par 4 straight up the hill. I couldn't wait to play the boomerang greens (#'s 5 and 15). #12 (now #3?) was the first par 5 I can remember playing where strategy entered my mind! I can't imagine the excitement I'd feel playing it again if it were anything like I remember it.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2007, 10:27:24 AM »
Im with ya Sobe.  I've never played it but, after years of reading about Mackenzie and dreaming of playing Crystal Downs and having the opportunity to play it a couple weeks ago, I am hooked and cant get enough Mackenzie right now.

The pain of it all is that the course is only open to students/faculty of UM.  I'm hoping a call down there and a little sweet talking will get me a chance to play it on Sunday.  

Going to be hard for a Spartan though.  If I play, I'll take lots of pictures and post them so you can see if the course is what you remember.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2007, 11:02:18 AM »
JC:

I've not had the stomach to go back to see the old girl since Art Hills worked on her in the early '90's. I'd love to see what it looks like now. I hope you get the chance to play. There are some truly unique holes out there. I honestly think that it's the course that really showed me what strategy was for the first time.

Aren't the Spartans coming to Columbus for a scrimmage this weekend?


All the best,

Sobe

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2007, 11:02:27 AM »
Doug what you describe as Number 1 is now Number 10, etc.  No change in the routing, just flipping the nines.

As I understand it, When the course was first completed, the nines were as they are now -- Number 1 was/is a Par 5 along State Street, and Number 18 was the great finish across the pond.  All of that routing, I think, was geared toward the finishing hole.

But for a long time in the 60's - 90's, the nines were reversed.  And while it may just be my own sense of familiarity with that rotation, I thought it was the superior setup.  The desire may simply to have been to have a first tee that was in sight of the windows from the clubhouse, I don't know.  But old habits and old familiarities die hard.

By the way, my favorite bit of trivia about the Michigan Course is that it was the site of the first USGA Junior, in 1948, and a teenager from California named Ken Venturi was the runner-up, losing to Dean Lind of Rockford, Illinois in the final match.

(I asked Jack Nicklaus once about the Michigan course, and said to him that there is some story about him doing such-and-such on just about every hole on the course, and he said, "I honestly don't remember the course at all.")
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 11:08:30 AM by Chuck Brown »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2007, 11:18:29 AM »
Chuck

I too grew up on the UofM course with the nines switched, but I don't think there is much in it to be honest.  I prefer the current 10th to the 1st as an opening hole, but I prefer the current 18th to the 9th as a closing hole.  There isn't any particular buildup to the end of either nine.  

When did the nines flip originally?  Was the stream in front of 18 enlarged to be pondlike - because it doesn't match the original drawing of Mac?  Perhaps if the stream was widened (including the obnoxious fountain) it coincided with the original flipping of nines?

In any case, if the bunkering were improved it would go a long way to improving the aesthetics and probably reputation of the course - though I think it wouldn't do that much to really improve how the course plays.  Like you, I would like to see more trees go, but again only for aesthetic purposes as I don't think the course is tight except for in a few spots.  

As for the conditions of the course, on my last trip back UofM was comfortably the best conditioned course I played.  The course was firm and the greens were quick enough to make you think when putting or recovering around greens.  There was certainly ball creep on several of the greens, but I would say they weren't rolling more than 9.5ish.  

The only things I don't like about the place are how it is run - tee times are booked out way too far in advance by all the big wigs and you can't get a beer after the game.  Oh, that new logo since the redo is atrocious!

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:UofM Mackenzie
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2007, 11:58:11 AM »
JC:

I've not had the stomach to go back to see the old girl since Art Hills worked on her in the early '90's. I'd love to see what it looks like now. I hope you get the chance to play. There are some truly unique holes out there. I honestly think that it's the course that really showed me what strategy was for the first time.

Aren't the Spartans coming to Columbus for a scrimmage this weekend?


All the best,

Sobe


Just remember 98 when the Spartans came to columbus for a scrimmage against a highly ranked buckeye squad...
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.