[Jerry Kluger]

Mark: My question is how does it play - it looks cool but does it work?  Is it dangerous as it appears that tee shots can easily land in the area of players from the other hole - how about shots into the greens - is it not possible that a shot can be far enough off line to hit the green of the other hole, or at least in the playing area? Are players comfortable when playing their shots are do they feel that they have to guard against hitting someone?

[Mark_Fine]

These three holes at KS work great.  The two with the shared bunker between them (#8 and #17) are superb (look at the photos of those holes from the direction in which they are played).  The other green for the #10 hole is uphill and it is a skyline green with #17 and #8 beyond.  You don't really see those other greens until you are standing on the #10 green.  

Again, you don't see this very often so I surely would not call it a design trait.  It is just another example of something unique in golf architecture.  Nothing more, nothing less.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here is a view from the shared tee of two lower holes (the third green would be to your right).  

When I first saw the pic above, I immediately thought it was
Inverness, also with the shared first tee, bunkers between
the fairways, etc., seen at upper left below:

[Mark_Fine]

Scott,
Good call.  We talked about those two holes at Inverness when we were at KS.  
Mark

[Bill_McBride]

Mark, at first glance I thought that might be Ross' Athens CC in Athens, Georgia.  There the #2, #5 and #7 greens are within 60 yards of each other I think.  I'm pretty sure those are the holes.

This link should bring up an aerial of the course.  The greens in question are just NE of the big lake.

http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/course.asp?course=238445

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
Interesting you mention a third Ross design.  Three courses out of 400 or so is not a trend, but it is interesting.  We're working on another Ross course in MA that has two greens back to back separated only by a swale.  It is very interesting playing to the green for the uphill two-shotter and seeing two flags that almost look side by side.  

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Here is a view from the shared tee of two lower holes (the third green would be to your right).  



Here is a view from the center of the two holes.

While the green complex(es) are indeed very cool, I really find the side-by-side fairways compelling.  Did Ross design them to be shared (i.e. no rough between them), or were they always to distinct fairways?  How about at Inverness?

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne W.,
I suspect they were always distinct fairways (have to look at some of the old aerials, we don't have the Ross drawings), however, the hazards were clearly "shared".  

Things have narrowed up quite a bit in the photo I posted but that is typical of many older courses these days.  By tightening the fairways, you actually make the course in some ways easier for the better golfer.  The hazards almost get taken out of play as a good player's target is well defined for them.  By bringing the fairway back toward the hazards they once again become a concern as lines of play change and balls are more likely to find them vs. hanging up in the rough.  Another point were making is that good players often have a tough time playing away from the direct line to the hole  

[BCrosby]

Bill McBride -

Good get on Athens. I had forgotten how close those greens are. They don't feel that close together because two of them are slightly elevated.

Ross seemed to use the hell out of whatever elevations he could find. He crammed them with greens and tees. Ross, more than most I would guess, hated to move dirt.

Bob  

[TEPaul]

Mark:

In the name of editorial fairness and balance, I must say those side by side holes in the photo above look pretty dull to me too, as somone above mentioned. Just because something is Ross there's no need to automatically glorify it.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Have you played them?  Don't just go by photos    They are actually very good golf holes and will look and play even better when touched up a bit.
Mark

[John Gosselin]

Mark, two very good golf holes with very deceiving,  interesting greens. If those holes were on one of the favored courses in the region they would be considered great.

Maybe if the bunkers had jagged edges and high grass around them that would somehow make them better designed holes.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
Fairway lines, native areas, green expansions, backdrops, stream adjustments (where it starts/where it ends/ maintenance of the banks), bunker sizes/shapes/locations, ... there are lots of little details that can make all the difference.  Once again, it is very hard to judge a hole from a photo.  
Mark  

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Have you played them?  Don't just go by photos    They are actually very good golf holes and will look and play even better when touched up a bit."

Mark:

No, I haven't. I believe that one should never go by photos completely when evaluating architecture but on the other hand I do not believe that photos are entirely worthless in evaluating architecture.

A whole lot must be hidden in those photos of those two side by side holes for those holes to be considered really good and interesting but I guess that's possible too.  

[Brad Klein]

TEP,

Mark's not the one judging those by photos, you are. They are really cool holes in the field and a fascinating focal point on the golf course as they each play as the penultimate hole on each nine.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride -

Good get on Athens. I had forgotten how close those greens are. They don't feel that close together because two of them are slightly elevated.

Ross seemed to use the hell out of whatever elevations he could find. He crammed them with greens and tees. Ross, more than most I would guess, hated to move dirt.  

Bob, I hope you are planning to be around the club on the Friday before the Dixie Cup down at Longshadow over the weekend.  Would love another round with you there.   Since it'll be October rather than June like last time, I'll be walking too!

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