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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« on: June 29, 2007, 04:21:44 AM »
I have been reading Ian Andrew's excellent series on architects these past few weeks.  The latest review was on Old Tom.  As it is well known, he was a shadowy figure and his contrtibutions to the game are vague, but considered significant all the same.  Our old mate Tommy Mac popped up to write a little ditty which essentially attempts to reduce the impact of Old Tom.  Yet, no proof is offered  which can be used to compare with guys who have made a study of Old Tom.  It seems to me that Tommy Mac throws doubt into the picture, which is fair enough, but can't deliver the knockout punch of who did what.  

I know Rich and I went around this subject with Tommy Mac previously and gained no satisfaction.  I also know that I went around a similar deal with Tommy Mac's assertion that Alison was a major architectural contributor at Burnham, yet I could find little evidence of this revelation.  I did find that Alison was the main man in carrying out Colt's plans and did a few bits and bobs, but so far as I know this doesn't beget architectural credit.

Of course, Tommy Mac could be right, but I sense he is relying heavily on intuition and unsupportable conclusions, much like in his Arts & Crafts piece (even though I do believe his thesis is reasonable).  Are we going to get an opportunity to see the proof of Tommy Mac's claims or are we expected to wander in the desert of his great claims?
     
http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/06/old-tom-revisited.html

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 04:28:09 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2007, 11:29:29 AM »
Sean

You (and Tom MacWood) should read my article on Old Tom in the July 2006 issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine.  In his note to Ian Andrew, tom is generally right about Royal County Down (little of OTM left, maybe a green or two), but wrong about Dornoch, Prestwick, Lahinch and Carnoustie.  Old Tom had a significant (and still visible) influence on some of the best holes on those courses, for example, Foxy, the Dell and the Alps.  Also, he designed much of what remains at Curden Bay, including the overall routing (i.e. around the Bay, up and over the hill and then back home again) and some of the best and most memorable greens (2, 5, 7, 13, 14, and 15).  Ach, just buy and read the article..... ;)

At Carnoustie, Old Tom and his sidekick Archie Simpson brought the course to 6000+ yardage in 1895 (including creation of the current 6th hole ("Hogan's Alley").  He was there 3-4 times in the 1860-1900 period.  His brother George (who was greenskeeper at Carnoustie) also did work on the course.  For for information read "Experience Carnoustie Golf Links" (GCA Feature Intervioew now posted to your left....)

You can also buy the July 2007 issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine, where my article on Archie Simpson will appear.

Enjoy!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2007, 11:36:08 AM »
Isn't most of the Balcomie Links at Crail the original Old Tom Morris routing?  I know they bought a bit of land to extend #5 (so that it no longer plays exactly like #4!) but not sure about the terrace around behind the clubhouse.

The convergence of all the greens and tees at the headland (#2 green, #3 tee, #3 green, #8 green, #9 tee, #11 green, #12 tee), all within 175 yards of each other, would seem to be a relic of very antique golf design.   Very fun but very dangerous as well!

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2007, 12:24:15 PM »
Sean

You (and Tom MacWood) should read my article on Old Tom in the July 2006 issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine.  In his note to Ian Andrew, tom is generally right about Royal County Down (little of OTM left, maybe a green or two), but wrong about Dornoch, Prestwick, Lahinch and Carnoustie.  Old Tom had a significant (and still visible) influence on some of the best holes on those courses, for example, Foxy, the Dell and the Alps.  Also, he designed much of what remains at Curden Bay, including the overall routing (i.e. around the Bay, up and over the hill and then back home again) and some of the best and most memorable greens (2, 5, 7, 13, 14, and 15).  Ach, just buy and read the article..... ;)

At Carnoustie, Old Tom and his sidekick Archie Simpson brought the course to 6000+ yardage in 1895 (including creation of the current 6th hole ("Hogan's Alley").  He was there 3-4 times in the 1860-1900 period.  His brother George (who was greenskeeper at Carnoustie) also did work on the course.  For for information read "Experience Carnoustie Golf Links" (GCA Feature Intervioew now posted to your left....)

You can also buy the July 2007 issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine, where my article on Archie Simpson will appear.

Enjoy!

Rich

How does one go about acquiring the magazines in question to read your pearls of wisdom? ;)
(Serious question irrespective of the  ;))
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2007, 03:13:20 PM »
In Kevin Cook's "Tommy's Honor", I believe Cook mentions that when OTM arrived at Prestwick there was a course there, but OTM was commsioned to build a new one when he arrived after Robertson sacked him. I don't think the one that OTM layed out was even on the original site, but I'll check the book again and cite his sources.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Rich Goodale

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2007, 04:24:18 PM »
Sean

You (and Tom MacWood) should read my article on Old Tom in the July 2006 issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine.  In his note to Ian Andrew, tom is generally right about Royal County Down (little of OTM left, maybe a green or two), but wrong about Dornoch, Prestwick, Lahinch and Carnoustie.  Old Tom had a significant (and still visible) influence on some of the best holes on those courses, for example, Foxy, the Dell and the Alps.  Also, he designed much of what remains at Curden Bay, including the overall routing (i.e. around the Bay, up and over the hill and then back home again) and some of the best and most memorable greens (2, 5, 7, 13, 14, and 15).  Ach, just buy and read the article..... ;)

At Carnoustie, Old Tom and his sidekick Archie Simpson brought the course to 6000+ yardage in 1895 (including creation of the current 6th hole ("Hogan's Alley").  He was there 3-4 times in the 1860-1900 period.  His brother George (who was greenskeeper at Carnoustie) also did work on the course.  For for information read "Experience Carnoustie Golf Links" (GCA Feature Intervioew now posted to your left....)

You can also buy the July 2007 issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine, where my article on Archie Simpson will appear.

Enjoy!

Rich

How does one go about acquiring the magazines in question to read your pearls of wisdom? ;)
(Serious question irrespective of the  ;))

Andrew

Go onto www.golfcoursearchitecture.net.  It may not be good enough for the likes of Sean Arble, but those of us who contribute think it is a charming and informed magazine. :)

Rich

TEPaul

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2007, 08:16:03 PM »
I believe the basic mistake that most of us make, probably including people like Tom MacWood and Ian Andrew, in analyzing a guy like OTM in the context of architecture and his contributions to it, is a failure to completely understand and appreciate just how different things really were back then in his age and era. We always seem to make the mistake, in both little and big ways, of assuming that things back then must have been sort of similar to our age or even the Golden Age of Golf architecture.

They weren't.

This kind of thing----this better appreciation of how different things really were once upon a time came home to me sort of full bore once when I was in the midst of a Rules change proposal and in frustration I was put in touch by the USGA with long time retired Joe Dey.

That man's understanding of the history of the Rules and the ramifications of the differences back then in apparently all things golf was unreal, in my opinion.

During our conversations, at one point, he stopped me and said;

"Tom Paul, I don't think you have much understanding of how very different things were back then, how completely rudimentary they really were back even in the middle of the 19th century. If you could step back from here and wash your mind of everything that intervened between back then and now you might not even recognize them."

As seems always true with golf course architecture, probably the best way to understand OTM's contribution to golf course architecture with courses other than the ones he actually worked for (full time), is to determine how much time he spent with them. If we find it was only a few days, we really don't need to know much more about his architectural contributions to them---eg they probably weren't remotely as much as we suspect.

As always, I feel, for whatever reason, Cornish and Whitten hit the nail on the head when they said about OTM that some of what he is blamed for was probably never done by him but by others years later or after he left some course after being there only a day or two.

 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 08:20:53 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2007, 12:25:27 PM »
"The amount of time spent on a project or the lack of technology used are not necessarily indicative of its quality.  In a way, we have come full circle, the best archies often utilize the most up to date technology in an effort to create what OTM was forced to find - holes which blend seemingly effortlessly into their surrounds."

Sean:

That's part of my point. It's completely logical that many of Morris' holes blend seemingly effortlessly into their surrounds since he probably just used existing landforms for golf, unable or unwilling to do more in an era that early in architecture.

Actually most of the best architects today who create courses that seemlingly blend effortlessly into their surrounds pretty much do what OTM did----just use existing landforms rather than make them. To do that they really only need to do what he did---eg study the land carefully. That doesn't take a lot of technology to do successfully.  The only real caveat or requirement back then or today is you have to have available to you good natural ground for golf.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 12:27:23 PM by TEPaul »

Ian Andrew

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2007, 10:18:51 PM »
Tom P,

From the blog:

"They had no ability to alter the natural terrain, so they concentrated on the best green sites and found the best holes that the land would yield."

 I think I understand the context fine - have a bigger issue with knowing what he really did since the numerous books I have are full of contridictions. That was also what Tom M pointed out.

Ian Andrew


Rich Goodale

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2007, 05:38:06 AM »
Thanks, Ian

Tom has been a busy little beaver since he left GCA, non? ;)  There are too many errors of judgement in his analysis to spend the time to comment on, but that Tom Morris found/designed "Foxy" at Dornoch is beyond dispute.  One only has to look at the 1892 map of the course to see that the hole is today as it was when OTM left (except for tee extensions).

I do wonder in all of Tom's minutiae regarding who did what and when to, for example, Royal County Down, whether or not all the "architects" cited might not have been just contractors.  From the club minutes I have seen of other courses in the same general time period, lots of fiddling was going about, but it was mostly inspired by the club Councils, with advice from their professional, and not from outside architects.

Rich

BTW--good blog and good series, although we can all argue about your rankings!

RFG

TEPaul

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2007, 06:52:12 AM »
Ian:

Thanks for the reply, and good stuff you are doing on your site.

In my opinion, to better understand what OTM did in architecture and also what he left behind, we need to appreciate better what this modus operandi they generally called "laying out" a course really was.

And second, we need to get some idea of how little time OTM probably spent with these courses other than the few he actually worked at permanently.

We shouldn't forget that OTM always had another day job.  ;)

Do you think Morris ever hung around those courses he visited long enough to watch somebody dig a hole to make a bunker?  ;)

I don't. I think he was probably in there fast and then back on his Gulfstream V and on his way back to his cozy little shop.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 06:54:33 AM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2007, 07:30:37 AM »
Muirfield wasn't in 2 loops of nine in the plan of 1891, but it wasn't out and back either;  it was in one large zig-zagging loop.  It was in two loops by 1920,  I think mostly due to Maxwell....and then Colt's big redesign to today's routing.

RCD is reasonably well documented,  nothing left of Old Tom.  It's currently, mostly, the design of George Combe (the boss at RCD) with about 5 holes by Colt and 1 by Steel.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 07:53:47 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Rich Goodale

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2007, 09:29:29 AM »
Paul

Richard Latham told me a little over a year ago that the 10th at RCD is a pretty much intact Old Tom hole.  Was he wrong?

Rich

Ian Andrew

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2007, 10:12:15 AM »
........and herein lies the problem with design credit

I have a series of books that often completely contridict each other. Even a course as well documented as the Old Course is largely a mystery.

I have now had enough experience with a couple of courses from the 1920's and 1930's, where I have personally found out that the information in a club history came through oral history and it turns out to be legend with no actual basis in truth.

A long time ago I suggested that Stanley Thompson could have gone out to watch Toronto Golf Club and Hamilton built by Colt. I have seen it stated as fact, first in a magazine article, and then referenced and used in an academic publication. There is no evidence that he ever met Colt or even went to see the construction - but some now think that is a fact.

Kind of like the Dick Wilson supervising Shinnecock legend, created by Wilson himself in order to promote himself as a great architect, which appeared in a couple of books.

Rich Goodale

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2007, 10:56:57 AM »
....and, Ian it is exactly why this forum and blogs like yours are important learning tools.  Yes, there is a lot of erroneous information out there, but there is also a lot of good information which is continuously being dug up, both empirically and deductively.  For example, even though it is "oral" history, I tend to beleive what Richard Latham tells me re: Tom MJorris' work at RCD since he just wrote a thorough book on the design evolution of that course.  We live and learn, at least most of us..... ;)

TEPaul

Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2007, 11:19:42 AM »
"Paul
Richard Latham told me a little over a year ago that the 10th at RCD is a pretty much intact Old Tom hole.  Was he wrong?"

Rich:

That wouldn't surprise me. When I was there on 9/11/01 the man I've mentioned whose name I can never recall (he was a captain of the R&A) had rather recently found an old drawing (stick drawing and such) that may've been OTM or someone else's of that old course reputedly of OTM.

The point is that old course was pretty much in and around what is now the Sleive Donnard Hotel which is on a pretty sizable tract of land immediately to the town center side of Newcastle and between RCD.

Any holes from that old course probably didn't go much past the 10th and first half of the 11th amd the first half of the 1st and the last half of the 18th and such.

The point is some of those old holes were on the land that  now belongs to the Sleive Donnard Hotel, including on land that is the hotel itself. You know that restaurant that's at the beginning of the Sleive Donnard's driveway? The old holes I believe went all the way over there.

Today you can have a wonderful drink and a hot cup of soup sitting at a table squarely in the middle of OTM's first tee.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 11:21:35 AM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2007, 01:03:01 PM »
Rich

Yes my mistake.  I think the 10th is the one hole left.  I have copy of that old plan somewhere.  Tom is correct about the general routing of the original course.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 01:04:33 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2007, 01:07:02 PM »
Sean

You (and Tom MacWood) should read my article on Old Tom in the July 2006 issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine.  In his note to Ian Andrew, tom is generally right about Royal County Down (little of OTM left, maybe a green or two), but wrong about Dornoch, Prestwick, Lahinch and Carnoustie.  Old Tom had a significant (and still visible) influence on some of the best holes on those courses, for example, Foxy, the Dell and the Alps.  Also, he designed much of what remains at Curden Bay, including the overall routing (i.e. around the Bay, up and over the hill and then back home again) and some of the best and most memorable greens (2, 5, 7, 13, 14, and 15).  Ach, just buy and read the article..... ;)

At Carnoustie, Old Tom and his sidekick Archie Simpson brought the course to 6000+ yardage in 1895 (including creation of the current 6th hole ("Hogan's Alley").  He was there 3-4 times in the 1860-1900 period.  His brother George (who was greenskeeper at Carnoustie) also did work on the course.  For for information read "Experience Carnoustie Golf Links" (GCA Feature Intervioew now posted to your left....)

You can also buy the July 2007 issue of Golf Course Architecture magazine, where my article on Archie Simpson will appear.

Enjoy!

Rich

How does one go about acquiring the magazines in question to read your pearls of wisdom? ;)
(Serious question irrespective of the  ;))

Andrew

Go onto www.golfcoursearchitecture.net.  It may not be good enough for the likes of Sean Arble, but those of us who contribute think it is a charming and informed magazine. :)

Rich

Rich
On the strength of your impartial recommendation  ;D I have taken out a subscription. I shall let you know in due course if I am dissatisfied ;)
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old Tom Placed Under the Hammer
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2007, 01:28:24 PM »
One other comment regarding RCD.  I think there were quite a lot of very early iterations, on that original tract of land.  

I remember trying to match Horace Hutchinson's description in his British Links book and that old plan in the cvlub history...there were some differences.  I'm not sure if Richard Latham looked at this in his book?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

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