[Kirk Gill]

I think Jim Engh approaches golf course design with an artistic temperament and approach. Witness this quote about golf course design from his interview on this site:

"Truly I believe that it is an 'art form of inter connected human experiences'. Golf is the only ' art form' whereby the viewers of the art can not only move within the artwork but also 'compete' against it. That does not mean that I will paint the Mona Lisa on the flags to promote art. But I will give great consideration to the human spaces through which the game of golf is played."

Whether or not an individual artist's work appeals to you has nothing to do with whether or not their work can be considered to be art, or whether or not their work is artistic.
Each person's opinion on such issues says more about them than it does about the art they are experiencing, imho.

[Mike_Young]

Tom:

I completely see how architects seek to evoke certain emotions from players through their work, but I believe my English teacher was saying that architects are not artists because they are not actually communicating their own emotions.  For example, when a designer creates a blind shot, he is indeed trying to create uncertainty in the mind of the player, but not expressing uncertainty in his own life.

I don't necessarily agree with that definition but think its proper application is that architects generally are not artists.

David,
I think your Englishteacher is wrong.....

[paul cowley]

This thread interests me as it hits very close to home.

My father is a retired Fine Arts Professor from SUNY at Albany, and great artist as well.....I grew up surrounded with the art world.

Aside from producing 'art', he also would design jewelery, stained glass, along with designing and building the family house. My mother is a noted horticulturalist.

When I was younger I wanted to emulate my father and I dabbled in drawing, painting etc....but I became more and more interested in the design, creation, and actual building of things that had more of a function and use.....all forms of landscape and hardscape, architecture and building, land planning and resort design, and of late golf course design.

My dad is one of my bigger fans as he is always amazed at what I might envision and construct next...especially because his creativity and forms of expression are so different from mine.

I share the same fascination and appreciation for his artwork, for similar reasons.

To me there is only one artist in our family.....and that person cedes back that there is only one designer as well....and its not that the two skill sets don't overlap.

Its just that my fathers work is more commonly found on walls....while mine you more routinely get to walk on.

....so are GCA's true artists?...probably not. I would think that 'artistic designers' is closer to the mark

[Yannick Pilon]

After seeing a couple a great courses in this past year, there is no doubt in my mind that the most artistic team out there right now is Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw.

Friars Head is probably the most beautiful course I have ever seen to this day.  Ok.  I saw it on a perfect fall day, in the sunset, with nobody on the course, so the conditions were optimal, but still.  

Artistic sure is a word that comes to mind when I think about this perticular course, and some of their other courses as well, like Bandon Trails, Talking Stick....

YP

[Michael Dugger]

Tom Doak
or
Coore and Crenshaw
or
Mike Devries
or
Gil Hanse
or
Jack Nicklaus (recently)
or
Tom Fazio
or
Pete Dye (is he working on anything, though?)
or
David Mclay Kidd

[Dan Herrmann]

All I know is what I see...  But Gil's "as builts" are real works of art, and I sure like the golf too.

This likens back to a question I posted last year - what type of personality do today's archies have?  Is it art, or is it science?  It's obviously both, but the ratio is what gives us such wonderful variation in design.

If you can go back a couple years before he passed away, to me the answer would have been obvious - Mike Strantz.   Not only artistic desgn, but a really wonderful artist in the purely art sense.

And TD's post about emotion is so on the money.    What is golf without emotion?  It becomes nothing greater than Putt-Putt on a large scale.  It's the architects that make the whole game click.

[Jon Wiggett]

If its to do with taking something that is ordinary and having the vision to turn it into something outstanding then I would say that the GCA I worked for would fit the bill. John Chilver-Stainer (who partakes in this discussion group) for his exceptional work at Interlaken Golf Club in Switzerland.

[Ron Farris]

Artistic?

My 16 yr. old daughter went to see a French artistic group the other day, because she has a keen interest in French things.  It turned out to be very impressionistic, with nudity, sex act simulation, and the use of fecal matter as some odd form of artistic expression.  The City shut down the performance and ask the promoter and artists to never come back to use their facility again, ever.  Even my daughter said that it was not art at all, just a way to get peoples' attention.  ( That in itself may define art.)

Like golf course architecture and art - some will like the art aspect and some will not.  Not all golf course architecture is related to fecal matter, but I can tell you I have seen a lot of holes in golf that I have referred to as nothing more than Sh--holes.  

For me it seems like this thread is yet another opportunity compliment the wonderful work of Tom Doak and his wonderful crew for the great artwork they have been producing. They have put beauty, functionality, strategy, and the art of combining those items with the science behind successful golf course design and construction.  That is no bullsh--!, judging from the one course I have played - Pacific Dunes, and watching the emergence of Ballyneal.  

[Greg Tallman]

The answer should be quite obvious.

Considering his quote regarding his latest creation in Colorado it must be Greg Norman

Cannot recall the thread but it was a humorous discussion on how Norman compared his designing of the course with that of a famous sculptor.

[John Kirk]

Like figure skating, artistic achievement is 50% of the total score.  Is it pretty?  Is it fun to play?  Sorry, those are the only categories.

This thread reminds me of the "McLaughlin Group" satire on Saturday Night Live about 15 years ago, featuring Dana Carvey as John McLaughlin.

"Issue no. 7, who is the most artistic architect working today. Jack Germonde!"
"Well, I suppose Tom Fazio would be a good..."
"Wrong! Eleanor Clift!"

[Eric_Terhorst]

This thread reminds me of the "McLaughlin Group" satire on Saturday Night Live about 15 years ago, featuring Dana Carvey as John McLaughlin.

 Nice one John!

[Brett Hochstein]

Going by my own experience, I would say art is at least one of two things: 1. life put into form, and 2. a means of stimulating life's emotions.  Golf design certainly fits the latter, but I tend to think it can be the former as well.  This is not necessarily by the direct hand of the architect, but perhaps more a product of natural form.  In some cases it is, though, and that is where I wonder.  I know that when I sketch, whether it be abstract lines or of a golf hole my mind makes up, I have found found that my emotions have had an effect on line, form, and movement in the finished product. This sort of all goes back to Paul M.'s post with his English teacher's view of art.

My question for any architects or shapers, has personal emotion played a part in your shaping of landforms or routing selection, whether it be directly or indirectly?

It just seems that with places like Sandhills and Crystal Downs, something had to be going on within.

[Ray Richard]

I would interprete artistic as having the ability to convey on paper the thoughts and nuances of golf design and construction in a format that is digestible to a shaper,sitting on a bulldozer in the hot sun, without a soul in sight. After an architects visit, and the thousands of pieces of information conveyed to the construction team are presented, the construction begins with about 50% of the information retained by the construction team. And the other 50% subject to the possibilty of "I didn't want it done like that".

 Some architects do CAD generated plans with extremely tight grade lines that need to be field interpreted, some give elevations at key points on the bunker or green form, some do informal sketches that roughly define the bunker floor limits and mounding sequence and some just "draw it in the sand"

 Based on this perspective, you have to consider Ron Pritchard. Ron produces a big Cad Master Plan to present the project overview, but he really shines in the field. His field sketches show plenty of information with a real sense of design intent. He illustrates, with texture and shading, how to make the mounding irregular and how to build the important bunker floor. He adds a few elevations so you can get the grades right but he doesn't smother you with grade lines. You work as a team, but without any questions about design and flow of each feature. He keeps it simple, but precise. When his visit is over, everbody on the construction team is clear on what he wants to accomplish.The finished product shows he is in control of the process.

Some of his client clubs frame these sketches and put them in the clubhouse.

[Scott Witter]

As Ray and others has noted, artistic flair/ability comes in many forms and definitions...drawing ability is only one form/aspect of being artistic, but the ability to think and draw 3 dimensionally and then to be able to convey that to a builder/shaper, or whomever is another level of being artistic.  To me, in the case of say Bill Coore, Tom Doak, Ron Prichard Mike Young, Forrest..sorry to those I left out, but not intentionally   and so many from the past, is their ability to first recognize what is the inherent quality in the scene/setting for a green site for example and then to know what should stay and be left alone and what needs to be added/changed to make it artistic and interesting for all considerations of the game and the design intended.  Just because you might have a big ass brush in your hands (excavator or dozer) and every color of paint to work with (sand, topsoil, subsoil, 100 grass varieties and all the time in the world) to work and rework the canvas doesn't mean you are an artist or are considered to be artistic, IMO.

All great plans of mice and men often go astray...many can draw, but not all can take it to the field and interprete what the site is really saying and then how to communicate their initial 'plans' into detailed reality that works well for the game and the site.  On few occasions, however, is the artistic result the actual result of one individual, but rather a collection of good minds and great talent pooled together with just the right amount of leadership and proper execution.  Whether in the office or in the field, those that are the most successful IMO are those that surround themselves with great resources, such as superintendents, other designers/architects, builders, shapers, owners, etc.

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