When did 2 1/2 become 4 1/2?

[Jeff Doerr]

I think the advent of a lot of unplayable areas - in play, is leading to a lot of local rules to be put into effect. The old, "Just play the wooded areas/long grass/gorse as a lateral..."

At Pumpkin Ridge there are a lot of blue or green tipped red stakes indicating a wetlands water hazard. Those indicating that even if your ball is playable you are directed to take a drop and not enter the sensitive area.

In the big picture I think this is an advantage that a groomed parkland course can have with 90+% of the site playable. Some faux-links are this way, but too many have conditions that lead to high thick grass covered areas. At one of my local courses I call these mounds with 3 foot high grasses "inverted water hazards."

[Garland Bayley]

Why can't it be both?  No matter how fast a golfer is, if he can't ever reach N holes in regulation, then that's N more instances of

get to the shot
        (certainly exacerbated if two cartballers* refuse to do any walking whatsoever.)
get a yardage
pick a club
practice swing
etc.

...

I am sorry, but this for me doesn't compute.
get to the shot.

Presumably every golfer no matter how bad advances the ball forward. The same territory has to be covered anyway so this is of no consequence.

get a yardage.

A considerate golfer will get his yardage on the way to his ball. Of no consequence.

pick a club

As soon as you know your yardage you can decide the shot to play on approach to your ball. Therefore, you know your club when you get there and it is a matter of pulling the club, which for some of us is one smooth motion with setting the bag on it's stand. Of no consequence.

Also note that there is dead time while others play where much of this can be accomplished, (and some of us play while others are playing).

practice swing, etc.

As I said before, I have timed the rest of this at under 15 seconds.

[Garland Bayley]

I do think the long grass or woods features cause a lot of lost time as groups go looking for balls - and don't play a provisional.

Time spent looking for difficult balls to find is always there on a course that have conditions that require it.

No one in everyday golf should return to play a shot from the last position. If you were stupid enough to not play a provisional, drop one where you think you lost the last one and assess yourself 2 shots!

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

I'll agree with your premise that its not high cappers who cause things to grind down for the most part.  That being said there have been times when I wanted to gouge my eyes out when I played with a high handicapper who had a long pre shot routine with several practice swings only to hit the ball 30 yards down the fairway. And then do it all over again, shot after agonizing shot.

I think people don't easily forget when they play with these types of players because it really is torture to not only watch them hack thier ball around, but also have to spend 5-6 hours watching them do this.  Luckily I've only had a few of these types of rounds.

[Garland Bayley]

6000/30 = 200

Kalen,

Methinks you exaggerate.

However, you are definitely describing someone from the family of the inconsiderate golfer, probably of the ignorant species.

Of course there are also instances of me and my fast playing high handicap buddies waiting endlessly on the foursome of single digits who mark every put, adhere strictly to playing order by who's away, waiting for the green to clear on short par 5s and par 4s, and gathering yardage to the nearest inch.

[Jerry Kluger]

Garland: it is an unfortunate fact that balls are lost, that is not located within 5 minutes, when the player has no reason to believe it might be lost.  My club has some thick rough and sometimes a ball is lost even though you are sure of where it landed.  That being said, it seems to me that you should not drop a ball where you think your ball should be, and you know that it isn't, and assess yourself a two stroke penalty, i.e., you're playing your 4th shot as if you're playing a provisional.  The bigger problem with that scenario is that you are presuming that your provisional was as bad as your original shot.  Remember Mickelson telling the volunteers not to look for his original ball in a playoff at Torrey Pines.  To me, it would seem logical that you should drop a ball where you would have been had you hit a good shot.  I agree with you 100% that you should not go back to the tee as it simply takes too much time - but the question is what score should you post - what best represents how you played - perhaps you should consult with your playing partners and drop a ball where you all believe it should be and not be penalized at all as this would be better in posting your score.  I think that either alternative is better than dropping where the ball was lost and assessing a two stroke penalty.

[Garland Bayley]

Jerry,

You describe an alternative that many people use. However, in order to get on with the game, I just drop in a reasonable location nearby and hit. Saves the time of consulting and relocating. Obviously I am not going to drop in a location that would give me a terrrible lie.

Your Mickelson example doesn't apply, because he played a provisional. Many people's provisionals end up near their original (same swing fault repeated).

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

Ok OK, 50 yards instead of 30.  By your logic that gets you to 120 strokes, which is in your league right?  

And when a good player does take more time, at least I only have to wait for him 75 times instead of 120...  

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

You still exaggerate, as you forgot putts. which puts your target at 160. Not quite my league yet!

So the truth be known, my foozles are really a whopping 100 yards for 60 strokes, and 40 putts to total 100.
 

[Justin Gale]

Garland/Jerry,

Drop the bass where you think the last one you lost was? Maybe in a social round. Here in Sydney, the majority of golf played, especially on weekends, is in competitions. So this is not an option. Even in stableford and similar competitions, people elect to go back to where their last shot was played and re-load in an effort to save a point. And of course in stroke comps, you mujst do this or be disqualifies.

The reason social rounds take so long is mainly due to inexperience. Many social golfers are weekend warriors, or once-a-year hackers, that have no concept of how to play quickly. Whats a provisional?? If you want to have fast rounds, play before all these types get on the course.

[Justin Gale]

As much as I do like "droppin' the bass" a la 50 cent, (not), I did mean dropping the ball. Apologies for my illiteracy.

[Jason McNamara]

Presumably every golfer no matter how bad advances the ball forward. The same territory has to be covered anyway so this is of no consequence.

Because those foozles you mentioned always go in a straight line?   What about foozles that go in the psych-out water in front of the teeing ground (get another ball, take a drop) and ones that have to be found in the rough because the golfer couldn't clear the 100-yd forced carry, then hacked out, then he still can't reach the green in regulation, meaning an -additional- extra shot?

Two extra shots for a cart often means two extra tacks across the fairway - more time off the center line.  I realize you are a walker, but half of US golfers aren't.

A considerate golfer will get his yardage on the way to his ball.

Assuming there's a handy marker right by the ball, sure.  

As soon as you know your yardage you can decide the shot to play on approach to your ball. Therefore, you know your club when you get there and it is a matter of pulling the club,

Basically true with a good number for a nice full shot, of course.  But someone shooting for greens he can't reach in regulation will leave himself a lot of 40-yard shots.  (In theory, he shouldn't, but in practice...)  Do you immediately know the exact club and type of shot you want every time you're 40 yards out?  Maybe.  Does the average golfer, who by the way never practices his short game?  Probably not.   (There's also the higher likelihood of a mess here, if it's usually a half-swing kind of shot.  You know, the flip over the bunker that drops in the bunker.)

>  practice swing, etc.

As I said before, I have timed the rest of this at under 15 seconds.

For you.  The -average- is > twice that, at least accdg to the article quoted at
http://www.popeofslope.com/paceofplay/howfast.html

Not the inconsiderate types - the average.

Please understand I am not directing this towards the golfer who has one or two at his favorite course he can't reach.  Also, none of the above may apply to you.  If it doesn't, then please don't assume I meant it to.   If you personally play the tips in 2:30 and shoot 110, then go ahead and do it.  But based on the times noted above, I don't think you're representative of people who play the "wrong" tees.  Sounds you you play quickly enough that even with extra shots, you come in under the average time.  I also agree with you that there are plenty of other factors gumming up the works.

I'll leave it at this:  playing the wrong ("wrong") tees doesn't automatically cause slow play, but I don't see how you can flat out say it doesn't lead there.  Or as Jim Engh said in a reply to 'our own' Jay Flemma when asked what makes him cringe, "People playing the wrong tees is the biggest issue for me. It slows down play, people enjoy the course less, and they play the course in the wrong proportions."
(http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=176)

[Garland Bayley]

Presumably every golfer no matter how bad advances the ball forward. The same territory has to be covered anyway so this is of no consequence.

Because those foozles you mentioned always go in a straight line?   What about foozles that go in the psych-out water in front of the teeing ground (get another ball, take a drop) and ones that have to be found in the rough because the golfer couldn't clear the 100-yd forced carry, then hacked out, then he still can't reach the green in regulation, meaning an -additional- extra shot?

Two extra shots for a cart often means two extra tacks across the fairway - more time off the center line.  I realize you are a walker, but half of US golfers aren't.

I have already said that hazards and difficult rough (requiring a hack out) add time. As for carts tacking across the fairway, I suppose the foozle hitter should grab a club and walk to his ball. I don't have much understanding of the time it takes to play in carts, because I seldom do it (twice in the last 5 years).

I think if you do the trig on offline shots by walkers you will find that very little distance is added by being offline.

A considerate golfer will get his yardage on the way to his ball.

Assuming there's a handy marker right by the ball, sure.  

I assume you are talking about cart riders again. I walk past yardage walkers all the way to my ball. When I get there, I know my distance.

As soon as you know your yardage you can decide the shot to play on approach to your ball. Therefore, you know your club when you get there and it is a matter of pulling the club,

Basically true with a good number for a nice full shot, of course.  But someone shooting for greens he can't reach in regulation will leave himself a lot of 40-yard shots.  (In theory, he shouldn't, but in practice...)  Do you immediately know the exact club and type of shot you want every time you're 40 yards out?  Maybe.  Does the average golfer, who by the way never practices his short game?  Probably not.   (There's also the higher likelihood of a mess here, if it's usually a half-swing kind of shot.  You know, the flip over the bunker that drops in the bunker.)

When walking to this type of shot, I have already decided whether I will bump and run or pitch.

I suspect the average golfer is always pitching since I sometimes get the comment "nice miss" when I have bumped it up onto the green next to the pin.

>  practice swing, etc.

As I said before, I have timed the rest of this at under 15 seconds.

For you.  The -average- is > twice that, at least accdg to the article quoted at
http://www.popeofslope.com/paceofplay/howfast.html

Not the inconsiderate types - the average.

Please understand I am not directing this towards the golfer who has one or two at his favorite course he can't reach.  Also, none of the above may apply to you.  If it doesn't, then please don't assume I meant it to.   If you personally play the tips in 2:30 and shoot 110, then go ahead and do it.  But based on the times noted above, I don't think you're representative of people who play the "wrong" tees.  Sounds you you play quickly enough that even with extra shots, you come in under the average time.  I also agree with you that there are plenty of other factors gumming up the works.

I'll leave it at this:  playing the wrong ("wrong") tees doesn't automatically cause slow play, but I don't see how you can flat out say it doesn't lead there.  Or as Jim Engh said in a reply to 'our own' Jay Flemma when asked what makes him cringe, "People playing the wrong tees is the biggest issue for me. It slows down play, people enjoy the course less, and they play the course in the wrong proportions."
(http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=176)

I suspect the average may only be the average, because there is not enough pressure to play at a reasonable pace. Of course many may think I am the unreasonable one.

[Jeff Doerr]

On Sunday of the US Open I became a clock watcher as it appeared Tiger may not be able to catch Angel.

....The last putt falls and the clock reads 7:29PM!!! Only 4 hours and 29 minutes for a twosome to play Oakmont!

Watching Angel play - I think he could play in three hours without trying to rush.

[TEPaul]

"played alternate shot lately?"

Jeff Doerr:

That question was asked in the second post. Maybe someone answered it and maybe not (I didn't read this thread).

But as to why 2 1/2 hour rounds are possible or were at St Andrews as depicted in "The Spirit of St Andrews" a golfer today would have to be aware not just that the old alternate shot game did rule back then but also how they played it for speed.

I guess most on here have tried alternate shot at some point but I doubt they've tried it the way they mostly did it over there.  

On a tee your partner would walk ahead to about where he expected you to hit the ball. When you hit it he would hit it next sometimes long before you'd get to where he hit it. The partners would just keep walking ahead like that almost like they were fielding your shot. You do that through a round and the time goes down significantly.

That old fashioned alternate shot game (foursome) was almost like a relay with a golf ball.

[Sean_A]

"played alternate shot lately?"

Jeff Doerr:

That question was asked in the second post. Maybe someone answered it and maybe not (I didn't read this thread).

But as to why 2 1/2 hour rounds are possible or were at St Andrews as depicted in "The Spirit of St Andrews" a golfer today would have to be aware not just that the old alternate shot game did rule back then but also how they played it for speed.

I guess most on here have tried alternate shot at some point but I doubt they've tried it the way they mostly did it over there.  

On a tee your partner would walk ahead to about where he expected you to hit the ball. When you hit it he would hit it next sometimes long before you'd get to where he hit it. The partners would just keep walking ahead like that almost like they were fielding your shot. You do that through a round and the time goes down significantly.

That old fashioned alternate shot game (foursome) was almost like a relay with a golf ball.

Sometimes we play foursomes in the winter when the weather isn't very nice, but some fresh air is appreciated.  We play the proper way, essentially two 2 balls except for around/on the greens, it is no problem finshing in 2.5 hours.  I hate it when folks don't play the proper way, especially in comps.  Having all four guys hang about for two shots is silly, but that has essentially become the norm in comps.  May as well play greensomes, which I think is a more strategic game anyway.  Sometimes, on tough courses with bad weather, it can go quicker than foursomes.  

Ciao

[Brian_Ewen]

AIR-CONDITIONED GOLF CARTS AT THE MONTGOMERIE
News from Dubai this morning that this summer, The Montgomerie, Dubai will be the first golf club in the Middle East to introduce a climate-controlled cooling system known as the Coolwell G2 to its fleet of golf carts.

The Montgomerie, Dubai — winner of numerous accolades and awards in recent times — has discovered yet another means of enhancing the Troon Golf experience and proving why the luxury golf brand is continually setting new benchmarks for service and quality standards world wide.

The Coolwell G2, enables golf to be played in comfort 365 days of the year, irrespective of changing climates. The Coolwell G2’s functionality is two-fold, providing cooling air-conditioning to golfers on warm summer days and, with the flip of a switch, heating during the colder months.

The powerful G2 uses ice, physics and 1 amp of battery from a golf cart to provide the air-conditioning.

One presumes that golfers actually have to come out of the golf carts to play shots!

[redanman]

I've been reading Spirit of St. Andrews lately and I'm amazed at all the references to 2 1/2 hour rounds of golf!

When did it change?

Why did it change?

St Andrews Old gave me a souvenir bag this year and in it was a ball marker with 3:54  (could have been 3:56) on it. No, Christians, it's not a bible verse; it's a suggested pace of play.  I found that kinda sad as 3:00 is a more reasonable goal for TOC from the yellers and reds.

Interesting arguments, but one JWN was extremely deliberate and he really did come to the fore in 1962, so I think 1962 is a good starting point.  JWN was and is very deliberate on the greens and iin a pre-shot routine.  Jack used to walk so fast, some scribes used to have to run to keep up. TV never showed that, you had to see it in person.  All you got on the telly was JWN belaboring over a putt, standing motionless at address for the right nanosecond to draw back and fire.  More importance, more deliberation.

JWN also started the maintenance craze that eventually gave us such desire for fast, perfect greens the demand drudgery to avoid four-putting.

Jack gave us white shoes, YUCK!!! Can't blame it on that one.

Anyhew, as TV covered more and more putting we became acutely aware of preparation, preparation and preparation.  Many pros and elite amateurs, hell even guys that think they  are good all have a complicated rather than abbreviated pre-shot and pre-putt routine.  (Furyk has lost me forever as a fan with his ridiculous three-time-step-away routine that makes me want to puke.)

Insistence on stroke play, holing all putts, PLAYING FOUR IN A GROUP!!, routines taking so so so much time and fast greens have all contributed.

Slow play has been accepted for so long iin America and is now sadly creeping into Scotland, too.

How do we fix it?

It's here to stay until we play two-balls, keep up with the next group and push them rather than than merely stay ahead of the group ahead, move move move and especially stop wearing white shoes.

[Doug Siebert]

Hmmm, four in a group?  Lots of courses around here will allow groups to have five if they all take carts (kind of an incentive to make sure they get that extra cart revenue, I guess)

I played at this really old private course today (established 1899, so it is one of the hundred or so clubs that claims to be "one of the oldest golf courses West of the Mississippi" -- nevermind that there is one established 1892 about an hour away )  The member I was playing with told me a few weeks ago he played behind a sevensome of ladies.  Luckily for him he always starts two hours before the league shotgun start, and the ladies knew the deadline too so they moved along and he managed to finish in two hours despite such a large group.