[D_Malley]

#12 at Paxon Hollow from about 100 yards out, after a drive of about 225 which remains short of swale.  

lie is definitly down hill with a little below your feet thrown in.  

bunkers were recently redone by jim wagner of hanse design.

[D_Malley]

the main difference with #4 & #8 at merion east is that the green is below the players elevation.  these are both downhill shots.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I did not mean to imply that the green itself is sloped front to back but that the ball rolls further from the front to the back more than you think because of 2 factors.  One, the back to front slope looks steeper than it is because of the overall topography surrounding it and two, the grain runs front to back towards the 11th green and the speed of the putt is affected by the grain.  Downhill putts are a lot slower than you think (away from 11 green) and uphill putts are much quicker than you think.  Come over and we'll check it out.

[wsmorrison]

R George,

The PH course looks very nice in the photograph.  What an improvement!

[D_Malley]

jim has done some excellent work here.
above is the before picture of the 12th green

[JESII]

Thanks Wayne, that makes sense...especially considering the way I 4 putted in the '98 Hugh Wilson...after leaving my wedge nicely below a pin that was just short of center and to the right...ran the 20 footer about 6 feet past going up the hill and then ran that back down to the apron because it caught a shelf right near the hole.

[wsmorrison]

As you know, it is possible to have grain on close-cut greens.  In our district I think Huntingdon Valley CC and Merion GC exhibit the best evidence of it.  Few know the greens and grain as well as you do at HVCC.

I find the more you play greens the easier it is to determine the effect of grain.  It takes careful practice/study or many rounds to really figure it out.  Playing a course a couple of times cannot indicate grain's effect, one needs a knowledgeable caddy for that.  

[JESII]

The interesting thing to me though Wayne, and I am not questioning just commenting, is that at HVCC, the grain follows water drainage (ie: downhill) everywhere without exception. I know the southern grasses can/do follow the sun, but I didn't realize bent would do that.

[cary lichtenstein]

I think current architects will not produce anything like this in the future.

[mike_malone]

 The recently mentioned Deerfield in De. has a daunting wedge to #1. It is close to a 90 degree angle down to the green with bunkers flanking and OB beyond. I always found it hard to judge the shot. The bottleneck in the middle of the green adds some more interest to the shot. When the pin is in front you don't want to get to the middle of the green; when the pin is back the dilemma is reversed.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I questioned the grain issue as well, no worries there.  But seeing is believing.  Over time, I really feel there is grain at Merion, even at such short mowing heights.  The 11th green at Merion happens to be the lowest area of the course.  Even putts on the other side of the road on 14,16,17 and 18 (forget 15 green because of the slope) are influenced by grain towards 11 green.

I believe Scott Anderson said that the grain at HVCC follows gravity first, which obviously indicates drainage and secondarily by the sun.  

[JESII]

Just have Scott show you one place where the grass follows the sun as opposed to gravity...

[D_Malley]

anyone else have any other examples of a wedge from a downhill lie when the green is above the player's level.  i know there are alot of wedge shots from a downhill lie where the green is below the player.  the green being elevated seems to be very rare, and also alot more difficult.

[D_Malley]

anyone else have any other examples of a wedge from a downhill lie when the green is above the player's level.  i know there are alot of wedge shots from a downhill lie where the green is below the player.  the green being elevated seems to be very rare, and also alot more difficult.  the 12th at paxon pictured previously seems to be a good example of this shot.

[mike_malone]

RG,

   If you hit a great drive on #13 at Rolling Green you are faced with this dilemma. My guess it that the downhill green makes it difficult to "plan" the shot; and the uphill green  to "execute" the shot.

[Kalen Braley]

18 at Olympic if you can hit it long....

[Ken Moum]

anyone else have any other examples of a wedge from a downhill lie when the green is above the player's level.  i know there are alot of wedge shots from a downhill lie where the green is below the player.  the green being elevated seems to be very rare, and also alot more difficult.

The 18th at my club is 310 yards and has has a low point that flat about 100 yards short of the green.

If you are inside 90 yards, it's steeply uphill to a blind green, off an uphill lie.  I don't like that shot, so I try to hit it in the bottom.

Sometimes I am short, and have to hit off the downhill, to an elevated green.

I actually prefer the downhill full shot to the uphill partial shot. But neither is as easy as 105 yards from the bottom of the valley.

Bigger hitters always try to drive it up by the green, and sometimes it burns them.

K

[David Ownby]

The sixth hole at Holston Hills has this feature if you hit your tee shot too far.

The hole looks relatively easy from the tee and on the scorecard. 330 yard par 4, wide open fairway and a relatively large green.

The key (at least for me) is to resist the urge to hit too much club off the tee. If you hit your tee shot about 200 yards, you are left with a 130 yard approach off a flat lie to a slightly eleveated green. Hit your tee shot 215 and you may be a little closer to the green, but you are now on a slight downhill hitting to a more elevated green that is severely sloped and falls away into bunkers on both sides. Hit your tee shot 235 and you know have something less than a full wedge from 25 feet below the green off a downhill lie.

It is one of my favorite holes on the course because so many first timers look at the hole as an easy par or birdie, insist on blasting a drive onto the downhill and walk off with a double or worse. Looks very easy, plays very hard.

[mike_malone]

 How much fun is that little Paxon Hollow ? It also has the 90 degree downhill half wedge #17 tee shot
 

[D_Malley]

#12 at Paxon is about 355 yards, but the fairway ends at about 100 yards from the green because there is a deep swale which starts there.  we do keep the swale mowed with a small patch of fairway at the bottom.  plans are to make this area more rugged like a wash.  if you drive it about 200 yrds off tee you are left with a below your feet lie to a green at about the same level as you are playing from.  if you get greedy and drive it about 220 or more you are then left with a downhill/below your feet lie to an elevated green.  

[Ken Moum]

The sixth hole at Holston Hills has this feature if you hit your tee shot too far.

The hole looks relatively easy from the tee and on the scorecard. 330 yard par 4, wide open fairway and a relatively large green.

The key (at least for me) is to resist the urge to hit too much club off the tee. If you hit your tee shot about 200 yards, you are left with a 130 yard approach off a flat lie to a slightly eleveated green. Hit your tee shot 215 and you may be a little closer to the green, but you are now on a slight downhill hitting to a more elevated green that is severely sloped and falls away into bunkers on both sides. Hit your tee shot 235 and you know have something less than a full wedge from 25 feet below the green off a downhill lie.

It is one of my favorite holes on the course because so many first timers look at the hole as an easy par or birdie, insist on blasting a drive onto the downhill and walk off with a double or worse. Looks very easy, plays very hard.

The course I play that has that feature is a Ross, like HH. And IIRC, the 18th at Oak Hill is something like that.  I could be wrong, as my only knowledge of it is from the 1998 Am telecast.

Is this a common Ross short-hole concept?

K

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